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FWIW, I don’t see this as a uniquely Mormon thing. I see it in the school PTA, I see it at work, I see it in our neighborhood with neighbors taking action on disputes, and I see it in families in how they treat each other. My lawyer friend tells me that husbands can spend a night in jail on trumped up charges of abuse, and there is no face to face working it out, the cops just do their job and let the proof and guilt or innocense get worked out later. It doesn’t make it right…it is just what happens in society.
My point is, it is a social issue and some people are more mature in how they handle conflict than others. Clearly the best way is to face to face directly address something, as the scriptures taught. But many people don’t do that, they try to get an authority figure to address it for them, and perhaps it is a result of pride or self-righteousness, and we all know that exists in all religions, including Mormonism.
Because authority is heavily taught in the church, it seems to surface in some wards a lot depending on the stngth of leadership, but it is more a social thing that is seen in Mormonism rather than a Mormon thing itself.
Just more evidence the church is led by mortals who are given little training to handle all things, and I agree with Ray about rendering things to Caesar and realizing that authority to be a judge in Israel doesnt make them inspired in all areas of life.
Who knows, perhaps the bishop learned something from kristmace’s experience that will help someone coming behind him in that area?
It is an oxymoron to participate in a site trying to help people “StayLDS” and call it apostate. Perhaps they were referring to the other sites with more negative tones. My question: What exactly are we not allowed to say that is critical of leaders? Is there something in the handbook clarifying that, or is that that a vague charge used in witch hunts?
I get frustrated at times with others. What is crossing the line, and why is it bad?
I have been in gospel doctrine class when comments were made by the teacher about Obama ruining our future for our children. No one took his temple recommend away.
The part I don’t like about your story is they shredded evidence, and privately apologized when publicly taking you from your position/calling. I think if people have a problem with me, they need to come face to face and open up with their concerns and I will respectfully discuss it with them. Not throw accusations, shred evidence, talk about vague “criticizing leaders” charges, and not own up to exactly what their concern is with me. And in 4 previous confrontations on this subject of posting online and if I am apostacizing, it has always ended just fine after I could push back on them and make them discuss with me on specifics, because the discussion broke down wild accusations with no merit. My bishop and my Stake President ended our talks with me by giving me a hug and saying, “You’re a really good man. I love you, brother”.
I’m pretty sure Elder Holland was talking about people who work through their unbelief, and they are welcome in this church. So posting here should not be feared, even if those who live in fear because of their immature faith get their panties in a wad about it. Tell the bishop to go work with those people who need help to stop being so preoccupied with monitoring and watching others.
In my experience, they wanted to know if I was specifically targeting the church or it’s leaders. When I shared with them I was on a personal journey and am seeking god and truth, and along the way if I say things about the church that I sincerely wonder about, but I am targeting finding answers and peace and love…they backed down. Because they don’t fear the honest seeker, and the humble doubter. They fear the aggressive attacker of the things that are sacred to them, and they will fight to protect their sacred things. I get that…I just need to show them I am no enemy of theirs…I just get frustrated by their leadership sometimes and I will voice valid frustrations. But I’m not one to be feared in their midst. I’m harmless.
I think journey girl and sirbikesalot make a really really good point…it is not a decision made in a vacuum. If it strains relationships or there are complications with kids, those would over ride a selfish need I have to take a break, up to a point. I did take a break and my kids were more than happy to stay home. I took them to the mountains, took bike rides, and did activities with them in nature…and to this day they remember those Sundays as good memories. I reiterated to them how important my faith is and my love for God. And that I love them. I avoided sharing frustrations and questions about the religion, but asked them their thoughts and we have had some great discussions.
Then we went back to church and they wanted to keep skipping and I told them no. I want them to have the experience of being involved in the youth and primary programs. But I also gave them a perspective that church isn’t necessary to feel close to God.
That has just been my experience.
One way to keep balanced and calm is to not subject yourself to misery because you feel you have to. This is a new stage of taking ownership of your faith, and so you can allow yourself to do what makes you feel good. You are more apt to feel closer to God wen you are relaxed and calm, not sitting in an assigned classroom and stirring in your seat. I attend class, and when I get to my limit, I excuse myself and go out in the hall. I have yet to find a hallway empty of anyone to talk and visit with.
I can smile, visit with a ward member, and feel much more relaxed and closer to the spirit that I want to have when attending church.
Also, I plan ahead for it a little, and position myself at the back of the room or end of rows where I can make an easy escape when I need to. Just knowing I can leave whenever I want makes me often feel I don’t need to, and I rarely do. But I allow myself to, and it reduces the angst if heading to class.
Wayfarer, I completely agree with you. There is middle ground for those who wish to find it. Those that just want the distinctive extreme options to make it easier to process are choosing to ignore a lot of other options. Borrowing from the KJV for the BoM is an important factor in seeing how God allows prophets to receive revelation and be influences by their world view, and as seers, put the world view and materials into a context that is expands our view of this world and continue to stretch to reach up to heaven.
Word for word dictation is just not the way it always works. There are other options, and therefore one doesn’t have to throw it all out as a hoax because of some parts that are not understood.
pentium3 wrote:It defiantly had a negative feel to it. I’ve always avoided delving too deep in to church history because I was afraid of what I would find, but I think I need to so that I can make some judgements for myself.
just don’t run faster than you have strength. All that history isn’t going anywhere…take time to read it but not as a way to feed your anger or frustration that you may feel from all of that stuff never being taught to you by your church that you trusted. Also, realize that if it was all so clearly all proof it is false, none of us would still be here. As Ray said, some groups choose to focus on the negative, others only focus on the positive. So embrace the various views.
Remember that optical illusion of the old hag and the beautiful young lady? It is the same picture. Nothing of the picture changes when you see one or the other. Both pictures are there to be seen. The group seeing the old lady is not wrong, the group seeing the young lady is not wrong, even if the other groups argue loudly or forcefully about it. Keep that in mind as you study from various sources of information.
I think you are doing a good job of listening to your own spirit. These were some things I picked up on in your posts:
– you are in a good marriage (it’s great you see that and you should make those important relationships priorities)
– your mom is a saint – isn’t that something to also consider? How could the church be all bad or false when some devout Mormons especially family who you trust are sincere, can produce good fruits?
– your children benefit from it
– there are things you feel the church has blessed your life – don’t throw those out with the dirty bath water
– you can sense the negativity of some groups or opinions – listen to those feelings and learn from what they are telling you
– similarly, some things you hear at church frustrate you – listen to those also and learn from what you disagree with at church…you can disagree with others at church, it is ok to do so.
– you live in the heart of the culture, and the fact it is all around you makes it hard to escape – that is a good, honest observation. It is a factor on why some people choose to StayLDS
I like how you are taking what you are learning about history and still holding on to your personal experience and clinging to your cultural roots. That is important to keep that perspective as you journey.
Also remember you are not alone, although you may journey alone, so many others have journeyed it also. There is some comfort knowing you can get through it, even if it takes a long time.
I personally liked Rough Stone Rolling as a source of history. It is written to present the things we know have happened, but tries not to draw conclusions about it. I liked seeing the flawed prophet Joseph, and yet think one can still believe he did amazing things, and does not need to be made into the size of Paul Bunyon to be a historical figure of great worth.
Pentium, I think you need to find a way to let go of what you hear on Sunday about conditions of God’s love and go with what feels right in your heart. I just had a good discussion with a released bishop who is faithful and strong in his testimony, and what he reiterated to me was that based on his experience, and how small a percentage of god’s children will meet the temple criteria in this life, surely the plan is flawed unless we embrace how much larger the Atonement can be and that surely a way will be made for so many more of us in this life besides just the lucky few who enjoy temple blessings.
The plan just does not make sense unless you step away from such limiting factors, and instead have faith in goodness.
Love your husband for the good he does. Live your life based on what you feel is right. All else will fall into place.
I think you need to find peace through balance in your life. I have tried to avoid taking breaks just to be lazy. But I did get to the point I was so uptight and sensitive about things that I finally wanted to try taking a break to see if I liked it or not, because I was out of balance.
I found I couldn’t stay away for long. I tried to replace it with other uplifting things. I even went on a church walk-a-bout where I visited several other churches. It gave me an interesting perspective.
I don’t know that I recommend to anyone to leave the church because I think it is about the best thing I have found for helping me learn things in life. I don’t know what is better.
But I do think there is a place for taking a break to clear your head if you are open to the spirit in guiding you, even possibly guiding you back again. It worked for me and I’ve returned to full activity afterwards and enjoy church and my associations there. I just want balance.
Parenting gets harder as kids get older and start thinking about what makes sense and what doesn’t. Their identities get challenged as they start to experience life and develop their thoughts. That’s why they need loving parents to reassure them as they go. My kids are 20, 18, 14 and 10.
I am glad they have learned they can come talk to dad about anything. And we establish that not everything they hear in church comes from God. Some of our best talks that drive us closer as a family come from talking about what they experience at church that is not right. I got to the point I finally told the bishop I had to be present at every conference with my daughters. My girls don’t remember the topics being discussed at that time, but they do remember dad cared enough about them to stick up and protect them and be by their side, and not give up by just yanking them out of the program where they had friends and other positive influences.
I think the kids sense some teachings are not right but they are so trusting of primary and YM/YW leaders. I think it helps them to see they shouldn’t place so much trust in the arm of flesh. But it can be challenging to know how to say that to young ones in a way they can process it.
Mostly, I think they need to know their divine worth and that mom and dad love them. They need to feel loved.
I feel it is kind of like a stomach flu. It’s probably not really something others need details on bathroom visits or stuff you are suffering fro, even if those things are very real to you. Sometimes discretion is a good thing. Others don’t NEED details. But perhaps it is appropriate at certain times behind a bishops door when talking of callings or other things. I thing it has been hard for me at times to manage the desire to want to be heard and understood.
That is where this forum can be helpful and safe.
My problem telling others is where to start the story. I’ve been so deep into the thoughts and journey that it hasn’t been received well from others who haven’t experienced it to know what I’m talking about.
I guess I just would say that perhaps never is a good time. Perhaps only in safe conditions among a few trusted friends.
I have found it easy to stay busy doing my Mormon thing, right alongside my ward members, and the subject doesn’t come up so I don’t bring it up.
Old-Timer wrote:Elder Clayton:
I’m cringing more than just a bit about observing happy, successful marriages, but I’m withholding judgment.
I’m not really withholding judgment. I don’t care for the message it sends and what people will take from it for those in our congregation who go through divorce which has nothing to do with paying tithing or church attendance in my opinion.
As always, some talks are great, others I can do without. Therefore the buffet style works better for me than suggesting (like obedience) I MUST like everything or something is wrong with me. Nah, I’m not up for that. I’ll just skip to the next option in conference and listen to another talk.
Elder Clayton is a pass for me.
Old-Timer wrote:Elder Anderson:
He just said to share our thoughts online daily!!! Think he had StayLDS in mind?
😆
nice!I’m sensing a heavy theme in conference is missionary work. With the age change, more people must be thinking about it, more missionaries are in the field and more families impacted by it. They seem to talk about it alot.
This is a great thread. Thanks for everyone’s loving and wise responses. I always think of my personal responsibility and integrity of how i habdle myself despite what others do and the golden rule of wanting to reciprocate how I want to be treated. To me…this has become the true purpose of the gospel. What I truly believe, what I do in accordance with my belief, and how I love others as I do it.
The church history and what others experience are but details that influence my thinking and are not unimportant, but are not all important.
Mackay’s wife has made a choice. I would hope members would respect her for that and love her for that. Therefore, I should have the same respect and love for members who have their own choices and views and are sure they are right with their views. If it works for them, makes them happy, and makes them fun to be around while we have Saturday get togethers to make our sons’ pinewood derby cars…great!
Becoming comfortable staying active in church and having a different view of the details of history or the “truth” claims shared by others is all about me becoming comfortable with myself and who I am and the story I create in my head to help me live a happy life. It has little to do with details in a book or words that come out of others’ mouths.
Be patient with yourself and go slow. I think there is a transition period from literal thinking and more mature views. Frustration, guilt, doubt, even anger seem to be part of the process. Let the process run its course. Learn from it. Look for the kind of responses you can give that are like Hawkgrrl’s loving and wise response. There is a better way than trying to make others think like you think. I believe there is a place for us to stay and be part of the group despite thinking differently.
I believe Pres Uchtdorf’s message in priesthood was teaching this very thought. And that is not a sermon to members about different fringe thinkers…it is a message to the fringe thinkers also. It starts to help a person see that even the other devout active members of the ward are really not so different. Staying becomes your choice, regardless of others, and regardless of history as we think we know it know.
I was thinking of this topic when I saw it in the news. I have always agreed with Pres Hinckley’s response when asked about it…for the most part, it’s a great to have experienced leaders at the helm. It seems to me they get more gentle and compassionate with age and experience.
Remember, we do have emirates status. So there is a precedence for “retiring” if the church leadership felt like there were critical issues requiring more capacity…it is conceivable a prophet could step down. But it is not likely since the counselors and Q12 are there to support and sustain and hold up the arms of the prophet in today’s church.
I respect the pope for being courageous to take a bold step down. I wish I knew more about how the Vatican works to know if it is comparable to the FP +Q12 with councils and authority. Does anyone know?
In Mormonism, having a prophet and Q12 gives some a testimony the unknowing is revealed and we actually do know. But really, it is still seeing through a glass darkly, with an organized leadership that seeks consensus on the interpretation of what is still unknowable. Continuing revelation is needed.
