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Well said Ray. That is where dialogue can be helpful to continue to share ideas openly until a greater understanding is met…even if different words are being used. I like how Cadence worded things, because I think there is a peace that comes from avoiding unnecessary guilt.
I just think an underlying thought is for me to remember that sin does exist…but I must manage it and the guilt I feel around it, not make things black and white where I wish away all sin so I have no guilt, or that all guilt is caused by sin, or any other equation that is out of balance.
Drinking whiskey for someone like me that has been taught the Word of Wisdom and promised at baptism to obey it, can be considered a sin. OK, I accept that and will try to live it. But if I am in Carthage jail about to be killed or abused or starved…there are other things that matter more to me rather than abstaining from alcohol in that moment. I have heard stories from veterans like Pres Faust who refused to take coffee even in times of war, and their testimony of bullets flying by and missing them. I allow them to have their testimony and think what they want, but do I think the Lord changed bullet directions or that unseen spirits nudged the aim of the person pulling the trigger to protect the non-coffee drinker? Nope. And that is OK.
I think deeply about these things, maybe more so than others in the church. On a simplistic level, I believe obedience brings blessings, and sin causes distance from God. And others may be using words to look at it on that level with no degree of variation or exception. I can agree with them on a simplistic level. But I don’t know how to get others to get deeper into the nuance of what makes more sense to me on a different level. They just don’t understand me and think I’m justifying sin. Deep down…the Prophet may have drank alcohol the night before his death, and if he did he would be accountable to God for whatever level of sin that my be in God’s eyes, and yet I cannot imagine that one little thing overshadows all the good Joseph did in his life or all the other obedience the prophet exerted throughout his life. In other words, it wouldn’t keep him from seeing God, or being exalted. It is just what it is…a part of the whole story.
We all sin. We are all sinners. No one is perfect. Don’t judge me because my sins are different from yours (as Pres Uchtdorf taught us).
I can’t have this discussion with people at church…it just makes it seem like I’m trying to justify sin and they think I’m prideful. Because people at church won’t go to the depths of thinking and philosophical train of thought I may go to in order to process and making sense of things. So I shouldn’t really try to have the dialogue with some…it just leads to disagreements. But I have my opinions coming from deep thought and my relationship to God. And these thoughts have helped me turn a faith crisis into more peace and relief from some sins that used to fret my mind. My faith in the Atonement has helped me let go of some things. I have bigger problems to deal with in life.
A faith crisis can help filter and prioritize things in my life. And remember true teachings about the Atonement and sin. But I don’t find a lot of success in expressing what I’ve learned to others who have not experienced what I have experienced. So I have had to learn to let go of wanting them to understand me, and instead just do my thing, and let others do theirs.
johnh wrote:Personally…i don’t think God spends a lot of time making things happen or not happen. I think we are here to gain experience and things happen…not by direct design but by random chance….
I agree with this.Welcome to the forum.
Good point RoadRunner, doing things to look good in the eyes of others is the wrong motivation. Having said that, I do think sin exists. I do think I will be accountable for choices before a judgement bar if God.
I just accept I’m so fundamentally flawed, that the Atonement gives me hope that sins are not all God focuses on. Apostles have taught us, this life is about becoming a more complete and experienced person, becoming more like God, not just a net worth of good and bad deeds.
I accept drinking coffee is a sin. I just don’t really think it matters much. So, all things should be kept in proper perspective. So I can’t use my newer found peace to excuse myself of all sin. I just need to be workng on the things that help me become a better person. And the church teachings help me with that. I have often felt guilt and pressure to be perfect at church, but self-reflection has taught me that was mostly self-induced. The church doesn’t teach me to feel guilty, but to feel happiness through obedience.
I need to separate out what the church teaches with how I process church teachings. When I feel guilty or I feel hard on myself for not being perfect, that is a flag that my life is out of balance. And focusing on the love of Christ can help me recalibrate.
That is where I find peace, yet still be motivated to obey and avoid consequences of sin, including sin of pride or self-hatred.
Holy cow! What aweful experiences. There is no doubt these examples make one question things. How could it not? I like Ray’s response. I think these things make one realize there is no other way to view the church other than it being run and populated by imperfect people. The church is imperfect.
It makes one wonder what God really does and how, if at all, He intervenes. To me, it seems obvious it is very little and only in indirect ways. A limited God who is bound by rules to not mess with Free Agency and poor choices as horrific as our history has given us make me ponder a lot about the spiritual promptings I feel I have has in life.
For sure, to StayLDS, I have had to accept the flawed, temporal nature of the church, and let to of so many things taught and said on Sunday about the Church. I have had to use my own thought and reasoning and personal revelation to keep a perspective about church, and build and own my own testimony.
There are many things I cannot deny are good about the church, and religion as a whole. I have also witnessed abuse in my own family from church members. We pressed charges and felt it was appropriate. Then we had to learn to forgive and move forward. But forgiving is not about keeping it quiet or not takng action that makes the church look bad. The church is imperfect, so when people do things bad it should be appropriately dealt with. That is the responsible thing to do.
But I don’t believe isolated incidents determine for me if the church is all good or all bad. People in the church don’t like to believe things are not black and white, but reality shows me things in life are a spectrum of colors including gray, black, white and a spectrum of colors. I am better off acknowledging that and choosing for myself what I believe.
I choose, despite the abuse our family has experienced, to see all the good the church has to offer me. To be a part if the fellowship of imperfect saints and build relationships with good people. And I have consistently taken action and called police when bad saints do awful things. That is just the right thing to do, IMO.
For me, truth claims are not dependent on what other people choose to do with this religion. It is what the religion does for me. I believe the church is true for what it is supposed to do. I give it no more authority than that.
Hi Featherina. I’m sorry for you it is hard right now. It sounds like you are trying to keep a stiff upper lip…and that is just getting old. I think, in both marriage and church, you endure when there is a vision and a hope of a better future. Perhaps the imperfections we experience now in those relationships can be tolerated, hoping that it is worth it in the long run as better things fill our needs.
What do you think? Is church or the gospel something that can fill your life with something? Or is it just a waste of time you are enduring until you can’t anymore?
Yesterday I took the opportunity to attend a local congregation of the Church of Christ. I actually was very interested in this and had been looking forward to this particular visit on my list of churches to go see.
It was a small congregation, small enough to recognize me as a new visitor, and many people immediately greeted me at the door and invited me to sit down as they moved across the pew to make room for me.
There was a lot of singing hymns…which I must admit, I’m not a good singer and don’t appreciate music, but I read along in the hymn books with them.
A lot of the service felt fairly familiar to me, and I saw similarities to the LDS sacrament meeting, including the passing of the bread (which was crackers) and wine (which I didn’t have to know if it was wine or grape juice).
There were some good messages given on remembering the Savior and His sacrifice for us. Short and sweet and basic. A lot of “hallelujah” and “He is great” comments…all done in a very religious tone…almost like people can’t just talk normally, but when they start praising God, some new tone automatically comes over them to praise God in a holy roller tone. I guess Mormons have a different tone, like when bearing testimony or some call it the “Relief Society voice”. I guess my mind was wondering about that for a while, then I got back to paying attention.
Then the preacher got up and gave a rather lengthy sermon on Thanks and Giving. Hearing the topic introduced, I perked up, as this time of year is a great time to reflect on these. I was disappointed to hear his talk was that if we want to Thank God for all God has given us, we must open our hearts, our minds…and yes…our wallets to the ministry. Then they passed the plate around for collections. The sermon continued about how as a full time minister, he “had to make this ministry thing work” or he knew he would have to resort to working a hard living like construction in 115 degree heat laying hot asphalt on the road or something like that, and he did not want that. He wanted to spread the word of God. He quoted from the New Testament the teachings of Paul, that it is appropriate for members to support those that devote their lives to preaching (see 1 Tim. 5:17), and that if we really want to thank the Lord, we will give money.
I was disappointed there was no further point to the sermon, and wondered if I came on a bad week, but as he concluded his sermon, he again mentioned that they had been preaching raising of financial means for the church in order to do its work for several months now…so apparently, it was a continuing theme.
I was not impressed, but appreciated the friendly people making me feel welcome. But there was no spirit felt in that congregation.
It made me grateful our church has overcome financial difficulties that we no longer have to hear much about that on Sundays. When I think of it in Mormonism, yes…there is tithing required and we are asked to give generously to the Fast Offerings as a sign of our devotion. But honestly, in my LDS experience, those are done with emphasis on the need for me to do that, not that the Church needs it and applies pressure to members for it. And I like the confidential tithing envelopes instead of passing a plate. Perhaps I’m too prideful.
It made me grateful that is one thing we don’t worry too much about, and the unpaid ministry makes it all sincerely being done from the heart. Maybe I find talks and lessons less than professional at times in our church…but seeing this other congregation made me appreciate what we have in the church. It made me a fan of unpaid clergy.
This walk-a-bout has been interesting to me so far. So far, I think Mormonism fits me best, followed by Buddhism and then the others are not really that interesting to me. More for me to come.
I don’t know, SD. I attended a Catholic Mass a couple weeks ago. They’ve been around a lot longer than us, and their meetings are not any more exciting. Being uplifted in meetings is like finding joy in life. We constantly strive for it, but they come in small doses over periods of time, with lots of tough times in between. Its unrealistic to think church will uplift you all 3 hours every week (or 2hrs of SC). But it is nice when it happens, and often worth the wait.
I think Stake Conference is to try to teach adults to strive to listen for things that apply to us even if a lot of the messages don’t, and the kids learn sometimes you just have to do things you don’t want to do, like sit quietly for 2 hours and draw. Good lessons for both, but also not something that is most important in my life (in full disclosure…we slept in and skipped ours).
doug wrote:🙂 I will keep that foremost in mind, especially if I am ever again tempted to try any humor here.🙂 I love your comments doug, and your sense of humor! Truer words were never spoken!!
Old-Timer wrote:I believe that He can and does reveal “many great and important things” through others, and I believe we miss so much growth and progression when we insist on learning and receiving “further light and knowledge” only from God – or in “religious” situations.
I wonder if this was what the Lord could have been teaching when he said
“the truth shall set you free.”SD, do you feel you are engaging at church with those boundaries, or are you withdrawing to protect yourself based on your experiences? I know you still go with your kids and wife, right? But when you go, are you engaged, or are you just tolerating it best you can?
I LOVE having the gospel library on my iPod and iPad!! It makes it so convenient having everything in one place and a variety of books and manuals and scriptures and conference talks. I think the church can do a bit better on making the apps easier to highlight and cross reference…but it is getting there.
Doug, I agree. And I don’t know if it would be so popular and so used over time if it was so straight forward and plain. It seems to me it is elusive enough to stand the test of times and generations, even able to morph to fit our needs, even if the original authors had no idea we would be interpreting it the way we do to make it meaningful to us. mlbrowninsc, It sounds to me you are drawn to the LDS faith, and those spiritual experiences are real to you, and mean something profound.
I feel similar, and cannot deny the experiences I’ve had. At one point I thought I could explain them all away, coincidence or hopeful interpretations….but in my heart, I feel there is something out there hearing my prayers and prompting certain people to help me in my path. And so I choose to believe, and it makes me feel good when do. I cannot prove things otherwise, so I cling to my LDS faith as the best possible story that helps me…and so I stayLDS.
Not everything makes sense all the time in the church, and I don’t get answers to all my prayers when I need them, which puzzles me…but I think that is part if the experience that we get to choose to have faith or not.
I don’t stay LDS because I fear of going to he’ll or lower kingdoms if I leave….I stay because I want to, I see good in the church, and frankly, the doctrines speak more to me than any other stories I have come across, and so it works for me, even though I don’t agree with all things and also take article#11 to heart to worship according to my own conscience.
If you feel you like things about the church, and feel you experience good things and answers to prayers, then I say stay and enjoy it, even if there a elements of it that cause you discomfort. I liked your earlier statement about many churches get extreme and it is all or nothing….I don’t think it has to be that way.
The second church I visited was Catholic Mass. The cathedral was spacious and beautiful stained glass windows. I was early, and sat in the pews waiting for it to start. The quiet, peaceful, majestic, and beautiful environment was my favorite part. There was a woman a few rows over that was sobbing and kneeling in prayer. There were not very many families, more couples or just individuals. The priest gave a sermon among the other hymns and chants and the standing and kneeling. At one point we all shook hands with people around us and said “God bless you”, which was the extent of the social experience. I did not take very much away from the service, but enjoyed the experience.
It was interesting. But like I said, my favorite part was before the service in the quiet, peaceful cathedral.
Last week was my first go about…and the Buddhist temple was at the top of my list. I first read on their web page about expectations (dress, times of service, classes, location, etc). The site suggested:
Quote:Please enter the Jodo Shinshu Buddhist Temple quietly. The main service room is the Hondo. Please remove your hat before entering the Hondo. When you enter the Hondo, it is customary to bow and enter with your left foot leading. Traditionally, women bow from the waist with hands crossed in front, and men bow from the waist with hands at their sides. You back is kept straight during the bow.
Chanting of the sutras is done in unison. Choose the deepest pitch that suits you, and the chant will be a harmonious blend of all voices. We chant the Japanese transliteration of Chinese words, so the sound, rather than the meaning of the words, is the basic experience of chanting.
It went on to talk about gassho (putting hands together like you’re saying grace), burning incense, and which foot to put forward when entering or leaving the Hondo.
I was a bit intimidated, even practiced at home several times thinking I was going to make a fool of myself.
My 16 yr old daughter wanted to come with me, so we made it a date.
When we got there, it was very low key. The people were very friendly, asked if we had questions, wondered where we were from, and laughed with us making really funny jokes in their Japanese accents that somehow made me feel so very welcome. All the customs and traditions and bows and all that was not a major deal. I saw some devoted members do it, and I saw some that didn’t … which made me feel more comfortable not needing to worry about it…but I tried a little to get the experience and show respect (I’m sure they were laughing at me on the inside).
The service was lightly attended…I mean lightly. There ended up being 12 people in the Hondo with us. The sensei went through chants and we followed along in the book. Then, he came down off the stand and pulled out a white dry erase board and taught a lesson. IT WAS WONDERFUL.
He taught us about finding the Buddha nature within us. That we have this specialness inside, and following the 40 vows help us discover what is there and what we sometimes don’t know, and we don’t know how special we are. My daughter really liked this and was leaning forward nodding her head.
The Sensei pulled out a piece of wood. He said:
Quote:This piece of wood is you. When I strike it against this chair, it makes a loud unpleasant noise. Then here on the leather pad, not good. Then here at the corner of the stand, not good. On my head (ouch), not good.
We smiled as he showed us how many things he strikes with this wood, and the sounds were loud or not good.
Then he takes a second piece of wood and says
Quote:This wood is your Buddha nature.
When he hit the two pieces of wood together, as we sat in this large Hondo room with few people and all quiet, the wood made a surprisingly beautiful musical tone, like a ringing from a xylophone. He says:
Quote:That sound is good. That is the true sound inside this wood. It is found when it strikes against the right object. Like you…you are special, you are beautiful, you have beauty within you. You can release that when you follow the Buddha, when you find the special meaning of yourself, your Buddha nature.
I can only describe my feelings as I listened to this wise man, as feeling the spirit of God testifying of truth to me. A tear came to my eye and I felt happy inside.
Afterwards he invited us to coffee and donuts, and we visited with the other members. They gave us a handful of pamphlets on Jodo Shinsu, their calendar and up and coming activities, and thanked us for coming.
My daughter and I left very uplifted. My daughter said:
Quote:I wish we had more of that in our church
I asked her more of what?
Quote:More lessons and teachings that really make me think about things in my life. Things that make me feel good about myself.
We continued talking, and she realized there are times in YW when she does have those experiences, but she thinks they are too infrequent.
We both agree it was wonderful to see how others do things. We both agreed there is some truth and wisdom in that Buddhist temple. It does not prove our church is false, but it helps us bring some things back to our mormonism. I think the lesson of the 2 pieces of wood can be compared to our spirit and the Light of Christ within us. I have been pondering of other interpretations of what this lesson can mean to me. I think it is profound.
It was a wonderful experience, and having my daughter join me made it even better. We’ll always remember this and the feelings we had.
The next congregations on my list include:
Catholic Mass
Local, small Church of Christ congregation
Grace Lutheran church in our area.
I will let you know more of my walk-a-bout experience.
