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Me, too, Thoreau. One trick I use is that I will sometimes copy all of a post, flip over to the notepad, edit it, copy all again, and go back to the StayLDS forum and paste it in the window that doesn’t scroll on my iPad. …of course, if I can just be brief with my comments…it wouldn’t be an issue.
doug wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:… like Ray says it’s easy for people to see the same exact thing very differently
… especially on the internet. Truer words were never spoken.
I visited a Buddhist temple last week, the sensei taught that when I speak to you, you will only understand 10% of what I mean through my words. When I write something, you will only understand 1%. The True message is between the lines.This seems to make sense in how we can draw variation of meanings out of the scriptures and out of conference (and out of doug).
In the car on the way home today, my 12 year old son asked me if we could go to church on Sunday, and he wants to go to the activity with the youth next week. I told him I’d love to go with him, and told him I’m proud he tells me when he wants to go, and that I don’t have to force him to go. It is his choice and I support him. I don’t feel I have to go this Sunday with my son, I’m glad I get to go with him.
Right now, I’m staying open and honest with my kids. They know I struggle to attend church and they know some reasons why, but not all obviously. I don’t expect it to be much different when they are gone. It will either be something that enriches my life and I will keep going, or it will be something replaced by things that enrich my life more.
I don’t feel pressure from my kids to attend, I feel pressure on myself to teach them correct principles by example and word.
Unfortunately, I’ve lived through this kind of scenario twice, once in my family, once with a friend who came to me asking what we should do. In both instances, the two different bishops instructed not to take it to authorities (police) but that the church discipline would resolve the matter. To be clear, two different bishops from two different wards provided the exact same advice, which actually sounds the same as what was portrayed in the news article linked above.
In both instances, after discussing with the bishop we didn’t feel right about it, and despite his advice, we planned to take it to the police and did, the police absolutely stated we needed to come forward and tell them…and action was taken, in the first case leading all the way to court and trials and conviction, the second case didn’t go that far but was just an agreement the individual was no longer allowed to attend our ward while the victim families were attending the ward.
In my experience, the bishops really didn’t know what to do, and were trying to be peacemakers, not offending other members of the congregation or assume the worst case scenario, but trying to give the benefit of the doubt…but really, it is like many other things, they are volunteers and not trained for severe cases.
It stresses the point, that although you go to bishops for advice and guidance, there are times you have to do what you feel is right, regardless of the bishop’s advice. I have no ill feelings towards either bishops I disagreed with, I love and support them (one has become a Stake President now), and both were supportive and sympathetic once we decided what to do…but the lesson learned was that if it involves my family, I have to be responsible for it and be willing to take action.
It would be nice and simple if I believed the bishop was inspired always and I could just follow his guidance always. But it doesn’t seem like God always works that way.
I agree with you SD, and I also recognize Hawkgrrrl’s point that the metaphor can only be taken so far. It does have some limitations, but it can be a useful metaphor. BeLikeChrist wrote:indeed Piper. spiritual experiences can happen to anyone who has faith in a supreme being. i have listened to people who have had experiences with God and many of them are not of the LDS faith.
Doesn’t it seem like in church that we discount spiritual experiences people of other faiths have? I have felt that way and am not sure why that is common (and probably common in most churches, right?).We seem to think the Gift of the Holy Ghost allows enhanced spiritual experiences, is that not what we are taught? I can see the idea that commitment to God and His teachings would lead to greater spiritual life through faith. But would that not be the same for people of other faiths?
My personal experience has made me believe it happens as frequently and as powerfully for others. I don’t see many General Authorities claiming it happens only in our faith and not in others’, but it seems the members extrapolate meaning to believe that is the case, as if God is selective with His children.
I have had multiple experiences where someone (usually an unexpected someone) stands to share thoughts from their personal experience that deeply resonate with me, and I benefit from it. I’ll be honest to say those are few, and too far in between many other thankimonies and ramblings that do nothing for me, but they still do happen, and I am grateful for the F&T meeting for that reason. To me, the things that I like about this meeting format:
– They are not assigned or called on, all that stand do so voluntarily and sincerely. That makes it special to me.
– They are unifying to the group. This was brought up in the podcast Brian participated in, that it is a way to all agree, and when you know the person and their background, that context provides more meaning than the actual words being uttered audibly.
– There is typically a lot of emotion, and I feel the sincerity of the message people are sharing, even if the message itself sometimes eludes me, I respect the person sharing something dear to their hearts.
– The kids are cute, and I can usually see such confidence on the kids feeling they are doing something good, and the parents that are proud of them. I see lots of smiles, and it does invite a good family feeling to the meeting, instead of just adults talking and kids trying to be corralled for as long as possible with coloring books. Quite often one sibling motivates another or a parent to participate. That is a good example of family-work, in my opinion. However, like everything else, I enjoy it in moderation. Too many kids and it seems to lose its appeal, from my experience.
What I don’t enjoy:
– Long testimonies. Most messages can be conveyed in a couple minutes, and would be more effective if more were that way.
– Usually to address nervousness, humor is attempted to break the ice. Its not always effective.
🙄 I have no problem with others claiming to know whatever they want, and sharing testimonies. The testimony bearer does not require I agree with them or that I accept their grammar or definitions of words. It is their testimony, and they can claim what they want. Roy said it well.
Roy wrote:This all goes back to the “I know” statements from F/T meetings. We say “I know” but that is not really what is meant. The testimony bearing is a form of ritual that helps the bearer feel connected to God and to the rest of the congregation. The person gets up, shares some personal experiences, says essentially the church is good, the church is of God, the church is meaningful in my life and I AM ONE OF YOU.
When I was younger, I really did think I “knew”. Then I became a bit more wise to realize how difficult “knowing” is. I’m glad others allowed me the space to grow through that process, rather than just shooting me down for claiming stuff in my youth by correcting me of things I didn’t have any awareness of. I figured it out for myself.
Here is something I’m fascinated with:
What motivates people to want to stand. Everyone says they hate giving talks in church and reference how nervous they are…yet one after another, people continue to fill mic-time. What’s the main motivation for adults to do this?
SamBee wrote:As an interesting aside, eyewitness testimony of women was not accepted in Jewish courts of the time.
That is interesting…could that possibly be a factor?I think what we are being taught is that the Pharisees failed to see the spiritual meaning and importance of the laws. All they had were laws to compare and elevate status and judge each other with those laws. Today, I believe we are taught the laws and rules in the church are given with the right authority, so it is God’s will as long as we also remember the spiritual meanings behind them.
There is value to having rules and order, and I find the most spiritual people I interact with understand that these rules are less important than the principles behind them, and always subordinate to loving the individual. The more shallow and immature folks I interact with are the ones that obey but don’t understand why, and seem to be fixated on whether others are obeying also.
I think Christ was teaching teaching to be careful of being shallow in obedience.
I also totally believe in the spiritual dimension to our existence here on earth. I think I’m starting to see it is greater than what the church can teach us about. The Church provides a good story to frame it that gets pretty close, but personal experience says it is much greater than what I thought in my prior years as an active member with mormon tunnel vision. I have been open to denying any kind of spiritual dimension in my life, and could not accept that based on my personal experiences. So I continue to try to understand it, and find mormonism to be a great guide in helping me, and also find I should not limit my experience with the spiritual dimension to the mormon version of it. Brian Johnston wrote:the topic of Fast & Testimony meeting in this thread is interesting. I just finished participating in a Mormon Matters panel discussion on that exact topic last night. I think it went good. Dan said it would be posted in a week or two.
Wo, Brian. That’s awesome, I can’t wait to listen to it.
:thumbup: I’m pretty sure we really don’t know what the next life will be like. But we try to frame it in ways that help us conceptualize it and make some sense of it from our earthly perspective, because we like to give ourselves hopes and dreams. That is the definition of heaven…a place or condition of the upmost happiness. For the same reasons we want marriage to be commitment and exclusive intimacy with a partner to create special relationships and experiences in this life, temple marriages provide that hope and dream it can last forever. Its a nice story. I don’t know why a loving Father in Heaven would deny that to any of His children worthy and desiring of it, but that is for Him to judge.
For me, it is just a symbol of a beautiful, eternal commitment worth celebrating and I hope my kids aim for that ideal. If they choose not to, I don’t expect to treat them any different or view their situation as doomed, but hope they find their own symbols and values to help pave a way for a happy life. More important than any ordinance in the gospel, to me, is the person’s heart and the characteristics they are developing to become “god-like”. I think ordinances can help us (like temple ordinances), but they are just earthly tools to help us put meaning on things. You can choose what meaning fits your experience best.
The talk you heard may have been based on Elder Uchtdorf’s conference talk “Waiting on the Road to Damascus”. Quote:there are some who feel that unless they have an experience similar to Saul’s or Joseph Smith’s, they cannot believe. They stand at the waters of baptism but do not enter. They wait at the threshold of testimony but cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the truth. Instead of taking small steps of faith on the path of discipleship, they want some dramatic event to compel them to believe.
They spend their days waiting on the road to Damascus.
Elder Uchtdorf, April Conference 2011
It makes sense to me that conversion doesn’t happen all at once with one huge, irrefutable proof. It is a faith walk, line upon line, precept upon precept from the still small voice and Alma’s proof through growth and experience.
Even the apostles and prophets have admitted this has been the path for many of them as they diligently work over years and years of service.
To me, this is why it is not simple, and it is not 100% clear in seeking the confirmation. It requires the desire and willingness of the person seeking truth to want to accept answers that are given, and the challenge to ward off the logical or cynical mind that can often dismiss the signals with thought instead of action.
As GBSmith says, it may mean reducing expectations to a more realistic level. But I think the realization of gaining truth over time through experience and action, confirmed by the Spirit, is likely more moving to the soul than a big vision.
My advice is to back off of expectations that it is “true” or “false”, as that binary thinking is less productive. Look at it as a continuum of truth, for which you can base your life journey (as SD wrote). If praying to Buddha is also something that produces good fruit in your life, learn from that until something better replaces it. Always add to good things and trade up.
Brown wrote:Why would a perfect being need to change his mind?
Good question. I don’t think that really makes sense. More likely, I believe there is an all-knowing, all-perfect God, who allows mortals to set church policies, and He will judge ’em on how well they did with their stewardship. Either that, or that mortals set church policy for which He doesn’t really care about. He cares about if His children are developing Christ-like attributes regardless of the policies being set.Either way, I think He is less involved in the setting of policies and the changing of policies than we often think.
