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If Jesus wasnt’ a real person, then that would end my internal stuggle right then and there. I find no satisfaction in believing in the idea of a Jesus or any other mythical character. And if just believing the concepts he taught were the only important thing, then frankly it seems that I could get them from a wide variety of sources. I believe that Jesus was a real person. And for now I feel that the LDS explanation for who Jesus is feels truer than any other I have found in mainstream Christianity. If its not true, then I can’t see myself staying a Christian. I think I would believe in a supreme being and that I would continue to communicate and learn thru spiritual means. I would most likely stay away from organized religion and only seek for truths that make me a better person and help to explain earth life.
I would never have made a good historian or scientist. My brain just doesn’t work like that. It seems God understands that about me because when I read the scriptures, He talks in ways I understand according to my needs and desires. I guess that’s one thing I like about studying the scriptures. I don’t have to have a Phd. 
Dealing with my crisis of faith makes me worried about my immortal soul. I don’t want to be a tare. The thought makes me sick inside. But truth be told, I think about leaving this church often. It isn’t a happy place for me to worship. I feel alone and unloved and the culture tempts me with unhealthy thought patterns. And because of it I worry that I won’t live with my kids in the happiest heaven and I worry that I am not doing what God wants me to do. Learning to listen to God only and not the programming of my upbringing or what I “think” the scriptures mean is a constant challenge. But at the end of the day, I know that my deepest desire is to learn the truth about things and to live my life accordingly. And when I read this parable, it gave me a sense of peace about the imperfections inside the church and inside of me and inside of all of us. God has it all in His hands and he understands what we need. I don’t have to be a crusader to fix it all or abandon the venture because it isn’t perfect in every way. If the church is like a person, and in many ways I think it is, then it needs to grow and change and be challenged and perhaps it needs maturing processes to acheive its ultimate potentials. And God in all of His wisdom seems to use long creative processes. He created the earth that way. He is definitely dealing with me that way too. Not that I like it. I wish He’d just come down and make things better or settle the issues in my mind. But he doesn’t. He lets me struggle and gain my strength peice by peice. And he doesn’t condemn me like I assume he will.
And I appreciate, Maple, that some see God as a black and white, heaven and hell sort of God. My understanding of mormon doctrine is different than that though and my personal experience with God seems similar to my understanding. In my youth, I was very afriad of God and I suppose I still am and still should be but its different now. Through the instense struggle of these past five years I feel like I am meeting a different sort of God who is absolutely overflowing with tender mercies and the deepest gentle understanding of my pain and abiding optimitic hope in the potential of man. I am not perfect, but I am learning that I never had to be. Perfect in Christ. That is what its about! That is the good news! Why else would Jesus teach the absolute in that doctrine? And you are right that there will be a judgement day when we all have to come to terms with our choices, but I don’t see that process of justice happening without the merciful love filled parts absolutely woven into it. And some of us, I am sure, will be the ones who don’t get to live with God or enjoy his best blessings. But until then, I see there is wisdom in God that the tares still rooted in with the wheat. That gives me peace. And I want to understand that better because it might mean that I don’t have to struggle against the church so much. Maybe I can go with the flow of it and find individual flourishing too.
Brian Johnston wrote:I prefer to see this parable in a personal and internal way. I don’t like to think of some people as wheat and others as tares. Sorry, but I just don’t like that all-or-nothing view of people.
Wheat and tares are growing inside each of our souls. When we make a harvest, perhaps call that a leap of growth, we harvest the wheat while we rip out the tares. It feels like something being ripped out when I have to drop my baggage, my incorrect and “cherished” expectations.
Thank you, Brian. This is exactly how I feel about it too. I think at first when my friend asked me I felt little pangs of guilt but then I decided what you have expressed. That there is wheat and tares inside of all of us. Its just the deal. I am feeling like maybe the wheat is light/truth and the tares is the lies of Satan. It makes me think the garden is the church and inside of it are wheat and tares. It’s interesting to me that the servant noticed the presence of the tares long before harvest time. I wonder sometimes about myself when I see something off or “wrong” in the church and I wonder if I’m like the servant that can see a bit of what Satan’s been doing and how effective he is at confusing people and how he is able to sneak in his influences into our traditions. I know Satan has been successful at planting lies in my own thinking. Sometimes it feels obvious to me as I observe the beliefs of others. More than anything, I feel the wisdom of the Lord as he knows when its time to harvest. Maybe it is about the necessary opposition. Maybe its necessary for the opposition to be inside the church, though I think people fight against that idea. I am still pondering about why taking the tares out too soon might be harmful. I guess I thought weeding was part of what makes gardens flourish. But I think that this is helping me to come to terms with the imperfections in the church. Maybe its ok that the history has its problems or that the church leaders don’t always get it right. Maybe God knows that overcorrecting the process of the church would be damaging. I don’t know. The ability to discern seems the most vital element for the individual at least. OR maybe God’s grace covers the misconceptions in our belief systems. Hm.
Heber13 wrote:Poppyseed wrote:I don’t struggle as much with the history though I have had my moments. And now after all this time and profound struggle within myself, I feel like your words said it best. It’s just not that simple anymore. But then again, maybe it never was suppose to be.
I like this Poppyseed. I don’t think it was supposed to be easy…because faith is supposed to be part of it for us all.Yeah. Faith. Boy, faith is a crazy thing.
The other day I read a quote by Neal A. Maxwell where he called earth life “the murky middle.” Gosh! It sure is!
Quote:At this time, I am finding myself desperately hoping that everything I once knew to be true be true again, but it isn’t that simple anymore.
This is pretty much how its been for me this last while. There are many of the tenents of the gospel that feel very true to me. Over the course of the last two years my goal has been to look at all of it and only keep what feels (thru spirit) true to me. I don’t struggle as much with the history though I have had my moments. And now after all this time and profound struggle within myself, I feel like your words said it best. It’s just not that simple anymore. But then again, maybe it never was suppose to be.
Welcome to the forum. I hope you find what you need here. And I am interested to hear about this next year and your experiences as you give it one last go.
Poppy
I wonder (just a guess) if your father is getting his thoughts from the D&C 1 vs. where the Lord says the church is the only true and living church….”speaking unto the church collectively and not individually.” I generally take that to mean that any one of the members of the church, leader or not, can blow it or be wrong or act outside the will of God. I think it is important to have our hearts anchored to truth or the spiritual knowledge we obtain from the spirit rather than the “goodness” or “obedience” of all the people around us. The idea being that men fail and truth doesn’t. I wonder if the “true and
living” part of the scripture might help with your last concern…..with the church changing all the time. In principle, this church is suppose to change meaning that is a living, progressing entity. It had to change early on as the saints learned to deal with the flood of new truth. It had to change as the church grew into the international state it is today. I think that is what continuous revelation is all about. It keeps the doctrine pure (which is pretty hard to do through the ages) while attempting to meet the needs of the people and challenges of the changing times. Now…..I don’t know if the process works perfectly. Even Joseph Smith didn’t get it right all the time. You can see that as you read the D&C. Joseph is the most chastized of them all! There is no doubt in my mind the church has made its mistakes. I think the Lord allows this for what ever wise reason. I also think that I/we want him to fix the mistakes in the church on our timelines and I think I am learning that God does it according to His. And that is becoming ok with me especially when I think about issues like blacks and the priesthood. Hope that helps.
Best wishes.
Whenever I see or hear elitism in the church, it seems easy for me to identify that as human nature/culture/pride and not true gospel understanding. It’s like fools gold that shines and attracks some who don’t really understand what it is they should be shooting for. Or its the jealousy of the people who don’t have “it” or who need “it” to feel good enough… and maybe even their inaccurate judgements of circumstances that may be different than they appear. When a boy gets the priesthood they are literally “set apart”. I suppose the word “special” could fit in here although its not my favorite description. What I see is that the boy is voluntarily taking on spiritual responsibilities that are tied to blessings according to ones faithfulness. If the boy voilates some aspect of that circumstance, the “specialness” leads one into more severe consequences. It’s a two edged sword rather than some elite positioning.
And I am not sure I can agree that sending someone on a physical errand of action is a bad thing or a coersion of some sort. Christ did it with many who he healed. Mud on the eyes…..bathing in the pool…..going to report to the priests. I think Christ uses these simple actions to help our internal growings. If we get too focused on the mud or the bathing or how the invitation came, I think we miss the point and maybe even some of the possible blessings. The main goal is healing. I know many of us have been hurt and betrayed by the church, myself included, but I think it is ok to trust sometimes. Maybe its crucial we learn to trust sometimes.
Val, I was trying to agree with you……or maybe add some of the thoughts your inspired into my head. I hope you see that. Spose I could have said it better too. And I love the symphony analogy we often speak of here. Maybe its time to stop calling ourselves misfits too.
Well, I am still working on this one myself. Sometimes I feel I have a case in my head for both sides of the argument. In fact, this week I had a blessing from a HTer. I couldn’t decide if it was revelation or the fiction this man had bought into or some combination of both. I found myself in the turmoil of being pulled in both directions and finding myself painfully unsure. I have spoken of my concern to God and my DH. I have had deep conversations with myself as I try to make the decision between these two compelling arguments. I think that the answer is I have to make a choice. I have to master the doubt. Having the doubt, I am learning, isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It provides needed adversity. I am becoming convinced that God is trying to not only get us to trust Him, but to trust ourselves too. Satan, of course, is trying to destroy both. This process of building faith is an interesting one. God doesn’t give the light to us until after we choose to discipline our thoughts in the way of faith. I am doing that with this blessing and the conversation with my HTer that followed. I can see now where the revelation started and where it ended. I can see that certain parts were unknowable to this man before the blessing began. But I can also see how he inserted his interpretations which were inaccurate.
Do I know absolutely that I am right? No, but I think so. But I feel I have done the best I could and I am waiting for God to meet me on the other side of my best efforts and faithfilled choices. And maybe I won’t be absolutely sure this go round. And maybe I’ll look back and see my mistakes. But I don’t think those mistakes matter as much as the determination to keep walking forward and using this process of faith and prayer and discernment. We may stumble up parts of the mountain, but we still can reach great plateaus and enjoy beautiful momentary views. And then we get back on the trail and start hiking again.
Valoel wrote:Well said Cadence! I feel very much like that too. I can wish all I want that members of the Church were different. If I stay though, being someone who is in fact very different, then I can stake a claim to making that wish happen, even if in a small way. The more we “misfit toys” stay, that is what will make the LDS Church diverse. It challenges me personally to be there. It’s a good thing. I challenge other members at times (like you said, when the times are right). It’s good for them too.
Wishing others were different is a waste of energy. Allowing people to be what they are and to continue on their way is a gift we can all give……to ourselves and to others. This is a lesson I am being forced to relearn right now in my life.
I have been thinking this weekend about the church and the sometimes violating “sameness” that seems a plague. But then I thought about what a blessing it is to be with people who see and believe the same things. Who live clean lives and strive for good. If truth is absolute and if principles are flexible, then there must be a way to build on the common and enjoy the connections while allowing the variety of each individual journey. Perhaps we can help the situtation by being an example of this rather than a boat rocker who needs the tide to turn in a selfish direction.
And to the OP…..why should you stay? In my mind, this can only be a decision between each individual and God. Where does God want you to go? What work will be important for you to do there? What answers will he give your heart and mind so that you can feel peace about your course and where you choose to plant your life? If your focus is only concentrated on what you are going to feel or get in return for your membership, then it won’t matter where you go or who you associate with. Your problem will follow you. When we are too concerned about what others do and how they effect us, it rarely gives us an accurate or complete picture of what is really going on with the whole. We don’t see ourselves clearly. We don’t see others. And we don’t see what God is doing. Our selfishness shrinks our views….and actions…..and love.
If you have God’s directions firmly planted in your heart, what better anchor is there than that? And the question of whether to stay or go settled inspite of the imperfections that might be present. The Lord allows the wheat and the tares to be planted together. If he pulls out the tares too soon, it will destroy the wheat. There will be a harvest. There will be a day when the wheat and tares are fully grown and clearly distinguishable. But we are not to that day yet. If God can allow it, in patience and tolerance, why can’t we?
Find the mind and will of God. Discuss with Him your needs and concerns. Be still and let him direct your course. The outside appearance of things may not always be as we think it should, but there is peace in this and that is something important.
Well, I am giving my thumbs up to this. The church membership worldwide is relatively young. I think the church needs to focus on the core doctrines and make sure that there is solid and deep understanding. I also think there is lots of folklore or limited understanding (misunderstanding) on core doctrines/practices and what they mean. Maybe it will help to properly teach the new ones and perhaps recorrect or reestablish the understanding of the rest. As I look at the “gospel”, I am not sure that includes history or the weird twists of culture. On the mish I remember telling people not to expect all the people to be perfectly kind or loving, or not to expect the church to always get it right the first time. I mean even today I see the policies of the church ever changing as it attempts to make the decisions that help a world wide church. Some attempts work better than others, wouldn’t you agree? I think the thing that is helping me stay LDS is believing that at its core, this church is a principly based church and that those principles can be applied in such a variety of ways. They transcend culture or country or personality. I think this is important when sift through what is important vs. the problematic biproducts of good people trying to do the best they can in a group. If our behaviors are a reflection of sound understanding and balanced vision of the principles, they may look the same as others who may not be doing all the doings for the right reasons. I guess I feel a responsibility to help people understand first and then decide their own behaviors accordingly rather than presenting the list of do’s and don’ts.
And sometimes when we have a bad experience with something, we might mistakenly assume that others will experience or percieve in the same painful things we have. Perhaps its important for us to present the meaningful core principles without contamination, if that makes sense. Not that our perceptions or experience isn’t valid or important for our singular personal journey. It’s just that each of us is so individual and God is able to do his work within all that diversity, so we shouldn’t get in the way.
Hi Swim. Hard stuff, family systems. Don’t know if it helps, but I came from a family that couldn’t give me what I needed either. Quote:I guess, in some way, I’m mourning that loss: that I’ll never have that with my mom again.
What is it that you are mourning? Is it your mother’s approval? Do you equate approval with unconditional love?
I remember reading Mel Beattie and realizing inside of myself how much….how desperately I hungered for the approval of others and most often from people who were either unavaiable or unable to give it. I spose at some point I have had to learn how to give it to myself or to parent my inner self the way I wish my parents could have done for me. I don’t really know any other way to deal with it. They did their best but it wasn’t enough and I have to figure out a way to heal and detach from them and their dysfunctional processes.
Hard to separate the pain from the church when its used in abusive ways. I am sorry it happened for you that way. Have you ever read Byron Katie?
