[Poppyseed]

Bruce in Montana wrote:

“The polygamist man is NEVER equal to his women. The more wives you have the more power and dominion you have. How is this a great equalizer? I really can’t see how it helps rid people of selfishness.”

Let me try it this way. I have a very good friend…let’s call him “Jim”. Jim is 45ish and a drywall finisher by trade. He has two wives, one 43 and one in her late 30’s. His first wife has 9 kids, the other wife has 5. Wife #1 is a reflexologist, she makes good money providing services to group homes…Wife #2 is in real estate. These ladies depend on each other to watch each other’s younger children, as well as the older kids, and have more free time than a monogamous couple would with either the 9 kids or the 5….I know it’s kinda strange if you’ve never seen it but it works out that way.

“Jim”, on the other hand, works his patoot off. We live in some of the best flyfishing country on the continent and Jim doesn’t even own a fishing rod. He simply does not have time. I’ve never seen a man with as little free time as him.

He gives all he has, and every minute he has, to his wives and children.

It is truly a refiner’s fire to learn to understand the wants and needs of another individual as he does in his marriages but he pulls it off.

On the other hand, Brigham Young said that this principle would damn more people than it would save (or something akin to that) It’s not easy and it’s not for the weak.

Power and dominion? Hardly.

If his attitude was selfish, he could just have a monogamous marriage and a girlfriend or two…or maybe a monogamous marriage and some extra income for nicer cars and nicer homes…or maybe a decent fishing pole and some time to use it.

When done correctly, I don’t think it’s an equalizer at all. It’s a liberator for women. Admitedly, there are many who don’t do it correctly.

That is the difference between celestial plural marriage and just plain old polygamy/bigamy IMHO.

My 2 cents..

These are all good points. They humble me each time I hear the description.

Quote:

Yes he did. He also taught that more would be damned by this principle than saved by it so, I can only assume, that he was refering to those who could manage to live it in a rightous manner

.

And maybe this is why only a few in the OT had the practice added to their righteousness.

Thank you for adding these thoughts to the conversation. I think that I can accept all of it. One could be quite refined by the process…..but I think it would have to be a very special man to master his sex drive that much. I wonder sometimes in our modern society if men are able to control their sex drives even with one wife. It seems woman are losing this refinement too.

[Poppyseed]

I don’t know why but I read your OP and I just wanted to take you to lunch and continue listening to you.

[Poppyseed]

Forgive me here. I am talking WAY too much. It is just that I think that this issue with regards to the principle of polygamy is at the core of my issues with the temple.

I was just reading a little of the Church of the firstborn from Hugh Nibley. (Not a church itself….just a concept if you are familiar.) I remember in college being rather jazzed about this concept. It made me feel like there was a difference between being merely mormon and really having the gospel of Christ really working in you and your view of things advanced and accurate. I still like the idea of really comprehending the spirit of the law and not getting hung up on the unimportant. But then I read about how basically those who become part of this exclusive group are those who have had all the ordinances and who have been properly sealed and who will receive everything the Father has. I am absolutely cool with all of it…..until polygamy comes into it. So, either I am on to something profound…..or I am splitting hairs over something that won’t matter once I am there.

I used to attend the temple quite a lot and I can document how it blessed my life and even made my face more full of light…..if you can go with me there. BUT, it has all changed. I have a current temple recommend, but I can’t bring myself to get thru the front doors. I am not sure why this is fully, but I think it has something to do with this concern. Now, I know this is deeper doctrine and I know I don’t know much about it. But, the older I get the more it bothers me and literally makes me wary of God. It puts a wedge there that disrupts my peace. I think I want to feel like I did before when I trusted everything. But now….I find it all feels warped or twisted or disappointing.

I honestly search my heart on polygamy. I can even say that I may have a testimony on it as I can recount my one experience with the Spirit on the issue. But I hate the idea! I am repulsed by it much like I am with some sinful practices. So, I feel that if I am ever going to move forward, I must come to terms with these issues.

[Poppyseed]

(This is in reference to polygamy in the CK, not necessarily on earth)

If I think about polygamy in terms of sealings and the blessings of Abraham, then in makes more sense. If everyone must be sealed together, and if the priesthood is only for men to hold, then it makes sense that unattached people would need to be sealed in somehow. I guess I am just wondering if this a “in name only” circumstance. It certainly isn’t when we look at a situation where a man may lose his first wife to cancer and then be sealed to a second after the first’s death. I think I might like to understand why only men have the priesthood and why sealings can only happen thru marriage and child bearing. I mean, JSmith did seal women to him, like the black woman who lived with him. But he didn’t marry her. Could it be that in the here after that sealings and marriage with not be connected?

We say we don’t practice polygamy today, but we really do each time a scenario like this occurs. It is something that brings about such mixed feelings. Why wouldn’t I want that widower to continue on in happiness and companionship? But in the same breath it seems like a loss too because that husband with reunite with his first wife but then bring some serious baggage with him.

[Poppyseed]

Well, right now I feel like I am on my own journey whether I participate in the church or not. I find myself feeling out how I want to participate in the church. For example: Does the church have to dominate my social life and my efforts of service in order for my life to be acceptable to God? I say yes….and no. I suppose it all comes down to God’s will for me and my correct understanding of it.

I am going to stay LDS because I can’t walk away from it. There is too much spiritual knowledge inside of me that makes walking away impossible right now. But do I have an agenda to change things? No. It would be like anything. There are certainly some change I would like to see with regards to how the church handles big issues in people’s lives. But, I just have to do my best and if that effects positive change in someone or some church process, well then good. I know I am blessed and stretched by being around certain people who are farther along the path than I. Perhaps I have something to offer if I can find the courage to turn my inner light on for others to see.

I still struggle with full participation in church activities. But I am not going anywhere either. I mean, where would I go?

[Poppyseed]

For me, the stuff about Joseph lying to Emma or the going around behind the churches back……this doesn’t really bother me in terms of my testimony. It bothers me just because I expected more from his as a prophet and a man of Christ. But, I have to remember that this servant of God was really a boy in many ways. He didn’t have the wisdom of a long life and years of marital experience to draw from. I think the Lord did give him wisdom and qualify him for the work, but I think these historical account simply shows that the boy didn’t know how to handle this commandment of the Lord. I think he did the best he could, but left much to be desired. And I wonder if any of the 20 something boys I have known could have done any better.

My concern lies with the principle of polygamy rather than the practice itself. I can see that God uses lots of “practices” to teach us or to accomplish immediate earthly needs. But when we start saying that everyone in the highest degree of the CK will be involving polygamy, then my heart starts to break. Doing the will of God in the flesh….disciplining myself to some unpleasant devotion….well, that is one thing. But this makes me feel that my worth as a woman is in question. That the comforts of the men….that the dominion of the men is more important. I feel that I am a tool of the Lord, not a beloved daughter. I have enough trouble with the good ole boys club in the church. Not looking forward to continuing that in the here after.

Now I know that this doesn’t square with all the other stuff the church teaches about the worth of souls and the constant battle the church has seemed to fight to get women to understand that they are equally loved and valued by God. It is just that polygamy throws a huge wrench in this effort.

At the end of the day, I don’t think we understand what it will really be like on the other side and I know that the church has stopped explaining the Lord’s mind on the issue. Perhaps it doesn’t matter anymore. Maybe this was never the will of the Lord. But if it wasn’t then it throws a huge question over credibility of the prophet. So, either the prophet is imperfect, or God isn’t the God I need him to be.

[Poppyseed]

Money stuff is so hard!! Ugh! And I am sorry you are going thru this.

Money problems, especially debt, influences how you feel about yourself and adds so much stress to the mix.

BUT….I am glad that you felt like you could just say the truth out loud. What is it Dr. Phil says…. “you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge”. ( yeah….I just quoted Dr. phil. I may need to go throw up.)

I think it helps to just accept that your cart is in the ditch and then maybe will help you re prioritize how you stop the bleeding in the now…and then help lay out a plan for the future.

You ever listen to Dave Ramsey? He isn’t the only finance guy out there but I like his get out of debt plans. He tells the hard truth, but it is the kind of stuff that helps change happen.

[Poppyseed]

Hi Annie

Sounds to me like you need a big giant dose of self acceptance and then maybe some gentle self care. And maybe a giant hug too….so here is a big one of those.

You are good! You don’t have to prove it by wearing a mask or comparing yourself to that Molly Mormon ideal. You are what you are and your life is what it is. Own it and be ok with all the parts and pieces to it. Having a gay exhusband…..why does that have to make you “different”? Why wouldn’t that make you more wise and full of extra understanding and able to reach out to someone else in pain or fear?

Sometimes I think the whole church wears a mask. Who knows– maybe all humans do that. And why? because we don’t believe that we are good, kind, and loving just the way we are. But I think that if we are living that way then we really don’t understand the gospel of Jesus and are certainly missing the boat with regards to grace. A little while ago, I just decided to be real and to stop trying so hard to hide myself or stop believing that all this pretense and pretending made me more righteous. It is hard to walk into the world and be completely authentic….well, it was for me. But it sure feels good. SOOO liberating….even though I feel nekked some days.

You sound good, kind and loving to me. Not perfect, but who the heck cares? I would much rather have a friend that is real and who tells me the truth than one who is always showing me her “best side” so that I will always think the best things of her or even worse, one who has to compete with me. BLAH! It is OK not to be the picture. I don’t think that’s who God wants anyway.

With regards to the self care and your exhaustion, what is it that you need dear? Do you need rest? Then give it to yourself. Do you need love….friendship….permission not to contort yourself into the mormon pretzel? Well, then give that to yourself too. It is ok to sleep or stop an exhausting thought process if it isn’t serving you.

I was studying charity yesterday and how important it is that we treat ourselves with that kind of love. Charity isn’t a mask. Charity isn’t a pretty picture. It is something that can go to the depths and breadths of any situation with power and healing and empathy and strength. I have felt God teaching me lessons about all this during these last few years and He pulled me away from the church (not gospel) to do it. It has been one of the best journeys of my life.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you feel supported and free to just say it like it is.

PS.(little rant warning) When are we in the RS going to stop all this “perfect woman”, contrived, comparing syndrome? We gotta give ourselves, and everyone else, a big giant break!! As if being a pretty picture could make anyone more loving……..

Sometimes I just wanna yell “STOP IT!” purposely omitting the dazzling smile and basket of cookies!

[Poppyseed]

johndehlin wrote:

Poppyseed,

I’m actually very interested in the topics that you enjoy/like.

I’ll look into applying some type of ratings system here.

Feel free to email me w/ links to your favorite posts.

Hi John and thank you. I am not so worried about rating topics as I am about sending gratitude easily. If someone posts something helpful, I think it might be nice to send them a nod. Of course I could just type “thank you” but I think sometimes people feel the gratitude but don’t say it or the conversation just goes on. I think a button would be a good thing if it didn’t cause anyone too much heart burn trying to program it.

[Poppyseed]

Hey Pappanoon….I like how you end with the “substance and evidence” comment. I feel the “substance” too.

I was thinking last night about how faith relates to praying. So many times I have felt that God wasn’t answering my prayers, but then I look back and I am not sure my prayers were full of faith all of the time. And maybe that is ok….I mean there has to be a place for desperate prayers. The act alone is a gesture of faith. But I guess I was thinking about faith in terms of making things happen and how I can apply that to my life today. I think there is a difference in effectiveness of prayer when faith is applied…..when one believes there will be an outcome even with the provision of “thy will be done” attached.

I was also remembering the time last year when I needed to get out of a bad situation and I was pleading with the Lord for answers and then looking for his hand to show me where to go next. The Lord put this idea in my head to sell my house. I didn’t really have the faith to try that, I mean, would anyone really buy my house? So I kinda sat on the idea. In the next days my H got a job offer out of the blue with sweet compensation and I decided to put a sign on my house just to see if God would make something happen. I had two offers by noon and sold the house by the end of the day. And I just kinda looked up into the heaven’s and knew God had made that all happen. Pretty amazing stuff, faith.

I need to apply more of that faith and trust now in my life now. I think I have dwelt on my concerns and doubts and disappointments too much. It seems to me that there is always a choice to choose the path of faith in relying on the Lord, or the path of doubt relying on the arm of the flesh. Seems sometimes like I really have to discipline myself towards the faith.

PS. There was a time when I wondered if this process had nothing to do with God. I mean maybe I was just discovering what the author of “The Secret” discovered. I think I have decided that there is a God and those guys are just discovering a piece of what God knows.

[Poppyseed]

I don’t think you are alone. I think lots of folks are bored at church. I mean, lets face it. Mormon church services are not exactly a parade and lights show. Our music is slow and our SM is relatively quiet (barring the crying and occasionally flying sippy cups). Most of the talks don’t come from seasoned speakers and sometimes lack spiritual stimulation. And I don’t suppose this circumstance is going to change anytime soon. I mean its not like the church is going to start hiring a band…..

I struggle when the gospel doctrine lesson is less than enlightening. I remember in our last ward we had THE BEST teacher of all time. My mind was exploding with ideas at the end of the lesson and he made us all laugh while he was stretching us. The NT was coming to life and I was finally grasping the depth of it. I was so excited I wanted to do jump splits……but teaching was his talent and he was given a forum in which to shine. The rest of us I am afraid are given the opportunity instead to grow. And maybe it is possible for all who listen to grow in the process too.

So maybe you should be asking yourself why you aren’t growing anymore.

I hope you can find a way to change up your thought processes while you are at church. Perhaps you could take the problem to the Lord. Do you need to increase your spiritual participation in the meeting? Or maybe do you need the Lord to open your eyes to the cool things He is doing with people in the meeting? Or do you just need to learn to enjoy the reality of what real people look like when they try stuff they are uncomfortable doing and find appreciation or even good natured humor in it.

I don’t know. Just some ideas. Best wishes to you. But, no, you are not alone.

[Poppyseed]

Wordsleuth, when you say that the world would be better off without religion, do you mean “church”? Sometimes I do, from a historical and social perspective see that church does in fact do damage. I certainly have my own personal list. But I think the reason they do damage (and I don’t know if you are referring to the LDS church or churches in general) is because the people in them fail. They miss the point (love being the point) or they get caught up in power or control or religious shame or improper fear or even right fighting. Maybe it is the leadership that blows it..or its the people or its both. My point is that none of these things is Christlike or God like or even the best of human nature. It is evidence to me that all of us, no matter if we participate in religion or not, need more than just religion….we need a God in our lives. NOw if there isnt’ a god, then that is another matter, but I am going on the assumption that there is. I believe strongly that there is.

Sometimes I wish that I could worship or hold onto the bits of truth I do know and value and resume my relationship with God without the entanglements of dealing with the “church”. There are definitely parts of mormon society that truly make me roll my eyes or that bring tears to my heart. And I wonder a bit at what you said about people being rational in their normal lives but gullible at church. On the one hand, I think sometimes you might be right. And in that case, I wonder if these people are lazy or fearful or just simply don’t get it. On the other hand, I resent the implication because I know from personal experience that knowledge does in fact come from faith even though I can’t prove it or take it to show off at the next science fair. I think the road to personal improvement is the hardest road and the one most humans avoid. They avoid it by staying safe….rather that safety is found in not daring to question religion or in those who need every criticism to justified avoiding the pursuit.

I was sitting in church yesterday, feeling the part of me that wanted to be there and the part of me that didn’t, and trying to absorb the best out of the not so great lesson. The subject was charity and how charity, above any other doctrine, was linked to exaltation. I read a quote that even said that a person can have a misunderstanding of doctrine and still, if they have charity, be saved. That made me think about all this effort we take to dissect every corner of our history and every mistake ever made. And then to go and dissect all the deficits in church and use all of it as a great case against religion. I guess what I am saying is that maybe all these concerns we have about church and culture and truth aren’t as important as how we love and treat each other. And maybe you are right even on this front that church isn’t the most loving place on the earth. But…..I think it is suppose to be. And so I think I tend towards the idea that making myself more loving and disciplining my weaknesses is perhaps a better use of my time than all the valid criticisms my brain can identify. I mean, maybe the Lord let our history go wacky and maybe he allows our culture to be crazy just to see if we will love anyway. I am not sure I see that people get to this kind of love without adversity. So….maybe the church is doing what its designed to do. Maybe it is just us that has the choice to keep our eyes on the ball. And maybe too I am saying that the only kind of religion that really makes a proper difference is the one that happens on an individual basis on the inside of a persons being.

[Poppyseed]

Heber13 wrote:

Quote:

I actually feel like God is requiring more of me with regards to all my “me” issues. Does that make sense?

Bottom line, after the fact, I can go back and put meaning to things, but it does make me wonder when I can really know God hears my prayers, and when I just have to wait for an outcome, see the result, then go back and place meaning to it. That was not the way I understood revelation to work. I still don’t know how revelation works, and that is part of my current journey is figuring out how to have faith moving forward. But at least I’m at peace and can go to church and not be bitter anymore.

Yeah. Bitterness isn’t exactly a satisfying emotion. I think I had to overcome some of that myself. I still may have a few pockets of it to clear out with regards to my inlaws. More working on myself, I guess.

Would it be completely trite to say “just believe”? It seems to me that when I don’t feel God is there that I can go one way or the other. I can say, he just aint there at get bitter OR I can say he is listening and trust in something I can’t see. Many times I have said both. It seems now that I look back, I can see much better than I did in the moment. I still don’t completely know why I couldn’t feel him or didn’t see him working. I remember a while ago being so devastated by the current events of my life. My testimony needed some serious mouth to mouth and I was feeling so alone. The nights were the worst. Couldn’t sleep. I would pray into the emptiness and wonder why I couldn’t feel anyone there and it hurt so badly because out of anyone I knew, I was the one the needed the rescuing. One day, kind of on a whim, I visited my brothers house. I am not close to my brother really and so I knew he didn’t know the nature of my concerns. But for some reason I felt compelled to asked him for a blessing that day. I didn’t say a word except “give me a blessing” and I put all my faith into believing that he would either speak something spiritually amazing or it would fall completely dead. I was hoping for the spiritually amazing, but preparing to be disappointed. But then my brother started to speak and he spoke to that inner hurting place inside me. He told me things…..things I needed. Rain after a drought. He explained that God was with me and had shed tears right along with me during those long nights. Well, I was completely reduced to tears. And more than that I knew he was telling me the truth, not just giving me some pacifying touchy feely sentiment. I don’t know why I couldn’t feel him. If he was right there by my side. But now I am learning to practice trusting instead of doubting. It feels better and I am really enjoying living in the trust.

I don’t know why I share that with you. Maybe it just came to my mind. I hope you can find the knowledge for yourself that is just as convincing to the deepest parts of you.

[Poppyseed]

Quote:

There may be competing forces…but we can’t feed both dogs and not expect the dogfights to get louder and stronger to the point we can’t hear ourselves think.

Yes. I think I have been double minded and I don’t like it. I don’t like the dogfights and the feelings of being hypocritical. I would rather lead from a place of surety. I like the scriptural descriptions of being immovable and steadfast and not being blown by every wind of doctrine. I suppose at some point, one must simply make a decision and then see what comes of it. For now, my decision is to stay with the church and to keep my covenants and to apply whatever faith I can must to my places of doubt. God, I don’t suppose, is done with me.

Quote:

By the way, I think I’ve got 2 dogs…not good and bad but dumb and dumber.

LOL!

[Poppyseed]

I have asked myself similar questions. If I came to the point where I needed to leave the church, I am sure I wouldn’t join any other.

But, in answering the questions, I found that I couldn’t argue with the value that I do see and have experienced as I have participated in religion. I think that there is much good in the world and many people serving out of kindness and good will through out the world. I agree that religion doesn’t necessarily have a corner on the market when it comes to good works. But I guess I see religion as more that just a way to get people to serve others. I think, at least in the mormon world, goals to elevate the understanding and spiritual capacities of the members….to literally change who they are and how they function in the world and in my estimation those changes can’t be made without the influence of a God. It is clear that charity for example (which is greater than love….more than service) is a gift of God. And I cannot deny that scripture study has had a tremendous impact on how I live and the kind of choices I make when I am wronged by someone or when I find myself feeling and acting selfishly. And then there is the whole thing about having a relationship with God and then a commitment to follow. Is there value in that? I think yes. I certainly have been blessed my life because of my commitment. I have seen miracles and felt guidance. I don’t think a civic or corporate organization can produce those things in the lives of individuals and then in groups.

So, while I see value in community groups and the good they produce, not to mention the goodness I see in agnostic and atheist friends, I cannot dismiss the value of religion. And even as I have questioned JSmith as a prophet and the legitmacy of the restoration, I can’t deny the knowing in my heart that there is a God and that He wants more for me and from me than good works. Even if I did walk away from the church, I would have to come to terms with that knowledge.

Is there a better medium for people to come face to face with themselves, to be challenged and stretched, to be humbled and changed? If there is a better mechanism, I’d like to take a look at it.

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