[Poppyseed]

Rix wrote:

mormonmama wrote:

I I want strong daughters without needing to be reassured by the Priesthood that they have worth.

So beautifully said…and welcome Mormonmama!

I liked your entire post, but wanted to comment on this eloquent line — I see the church “culture” evolving to this attitude (I don’t think the pure doctrines teach what you said, but it is certainly taught anyway…). I think it is all about learning we are each beautiful and worthy, no matter if we have children, get married or not, work in or outside the home, or even support gay rights!

IOW, it’s not really about what one “does,” it’s how one finds self-love, forgiveness, and connection with “God” — however they define “Him.” To me, that is the truth of the gospel, and what Jesus ultimately taught.

It looks like you will fit in nicely here!

This is an interesting idea (referring to MM’s quote). Needing a man to have worth is an interesting idea because it is often the relationship of the girl to her father that seems to make such a difference in how she ends up measuring her worth. So while we do need to help our girls see their worth, I don’t think we can underestimate the power of a loving and attentive father.

And I agree Rix that the trend of the church is changing a bit. I just don’t think the trials of the last days allow us to remain in the nice mormon box of all the list of mormon “doings”. That doesn’t underestimate the importance of good works and loving behaviors. I think it just makes the expression of them spring from a better place inside of us.

[Poppyseed]

mormonmama wrote:

I believe strongly that our responsibility as parents is to teach our children about the truthfulness of the gospel. Not to teach them that everything they hear at church is true. No, to teach them about what is truthful and to teach them how to find answers when the ones they are getting at church don’t add up.

I use to love bearing my testimony in sacrament and now I’m afraid to. I don’t know what would be considered taboo and more than that I can’t say that ‘I know that it’s true’ about so many aspects that I stay sitting and I have been waiting for a better way to articulate how I feel, why I go and what keeps me wanting to have the gospel in my house.

Welcome Mormonmomma.

I love the first statement and I’d love to hear your ponderings about the second — if you choose to explore that here.

[Poppyseed]

1topen wrote:

I still have a problem with this, why do we have to keep on making allowances for Joseph’s behavior. The mistakes he made are not just regular natural man ‘misdemeanors’. They are huge. lets be honest, he would be in jail if he was alive today! I look at my husband, my brother, my father and my father in law, in fact I can think of 10 other men that I am close to between the ages of 18 and 65 that are all more honorable than Joseph Smith was. I get tired of hearing excuses about him. Ok so maybe he was a prophet despite his crimes. Perhaps Warren Jeff’s is too?

I don’t think I view the Q of 12 as sinless, but I do think they are the best of men who have a great testimony of the Atonement. Great testimonies of the atonement only come if people repent so I imagine that they have and do repent and that perhaps their sins aren’t my business as long as God trusts them.

I see that JS made mistakes. I see that the history is murky and strange but I have never heard anything conclusive that convinced me Joseph committed “crimes”. Even the part about marrying a 14 yr old — something that was not against the law at the time. I love how Ray shared that Joseph was the most chastized man in the D&C and those were just the times that were publically recorded.

I guess what it really comes down to is whether or not God used him and trusted him. If God did, who am I to argue with who he chose? And if Joseph did sin profoundly, how much of that is my business? God said he would remove joseph out of his place if he led the church astray. He died young. Perhaps it was time. If Joseph wasn’t a prophet, well then anyone who doesn’t follow has anything to worry about. And if we place our trust and our testimonies in men, then we misplace our trust. The question is if JS was a prophet….not if he was a perfect man and can prove that to us. How many times did he try to get the people to understand that? Seems we are still struggling with the same thing.

[Poppyseed]

Ok….sorry to keep adding here. BUt I think the thing that does separate us from other groups IS our focus on gaining a testimony. If parenting goes from “you Can know it and I can show you how” to “you’d better know it and recite it and behave like you do or you are bad” then maybe that’s the difference.

[Poppyseed]

Heber13 wrote:

George wrote:

Have you ever thought there are more than one way…that for you and me, we are taught one way and will be accountable for the conditions set before us…but that doesn’t mean those are universal conditions for all?

I have thought about this a lot. I know with my own kids, I have to deal with my oldest differently than others. He has challenges the others don’t and he’ll push me farther than the others will. I know that I have felt spirit “commands” if you want to call them that, that had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else or even a scripture in the good book. But I can tell you I felt consequenses when I didn’t obey. Holy OUCH batman!

I don’t though know quite how to view the rest of the world and all of these religions. Is it the case of lots of roads lead to exhaltation? OR….is it that God knows how to have universal conditions but judge each person or group according to their abilities, knowledge, opportunities…..etc.?

I think I feel like I am a good example of what you are talking about Heber. It’s one of the reasons I can’t leave the church. If all churches were good, then my picking any one of them wouldn’t matter. But my insides go crazy when I think about it. I can’t escape my testimony. I feel so very strongly God is holding me to that. Maybe the trick is not superimposing this singular experience with anyone else. But it might feel good to know I wasn’t alone either.

[Poppyseed]

swimordie wrote:

swimordie wrote:

I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.

Sorry to quote myself, but parsing my words… 😳

I did say “orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.”

And, there were, and in some ways, still are, prominent ideologies that exist which have manifested themselves in horrific ways, like suicide, sexual abuse, drug overdose, hate crimes.

I recognize without hesitation that this would be the exception and happens in other orthodox dogmatic cultures, but, in many of these cases, it is, in fact, the extreme ideology that has been inculcated which precipitates said horrors.

Again, calling what happens generally in the culture “indoctrination” is much more accurate, but that does not preclude those instances when real “brainwashing” has occurred.

fwiw, I’m specifically speaking to instances of extreme emotional and physical abuse by parents on children who, as adults, are unable to respect normal human boundaries because, in their own mind, their horrific actions are justified by the childhood inculcation.

Absolutely, this is the exception. And, generally, could happen in any cultural/societal group.

Sorry for the thread-jack. 😳

Thanks. I guess I am not talking about the peripheral exceptions. I wanna look at the mainstream and ask the question there. Thanks.

[Poppyseed]

Quote:

I think in previous generations, even the hard-core version of brainwashing (torture, mental incapacitation) was a part of the mormon culture. The level of emotional abuse, coercion, manipulation, fear-mongering, etc. was at that extreme level. And, no doubt, it still exists in some orthodox homes, whether mormon or otherwise.

Wow. This statement is alarming to me. I DON’T see this as ever being a part of mormon history and I feel badly for even using the term now. I used it because that was the word the person I referred to used. I knew it was an exaggeration as many of our terms are when describing our emotions. “I had the WORST day EVER at work”. “My friend gossiped about me. My life is OVER!” You see what I mean? And we all understand the exaggeration and move on. I was hoping you all would react that way here. Truthfully, I just wanted to understand more fully what this gentlemen meant even though I could also feel his imbalanced resentments.

My last desire was to place the church in this light. Please, Ray (or other mods), if you need to change my posting in anyway, please feel free to do so.

Quote:

And, I appreciate poppy’s OP because I have many conflicting ideas in my own mind about my kids going to church and hearing one thing, and then coming home and hearing another. When they hear it at church, it’s black and white, all or nothing, “all true”. When they hear it from me, it’s “this is possible”, “there may be more than one way to look at that”, etc.

From what I can tell, the church has been telling us that the gospel should be taught in our homes first. The church or what we receive at services is a supplement to that. If the church made mistakes like in the past hopefully we have learned from that now — at least what comes out of SLC. I think the church is more principle based than ever even though there is still an emphasis on certain behaviors. But I do see the orthodox stuff that places performance above all and misses the forest for the trees.

Having said that…..I worry about it too because I am not sure I can defuse it. I mean all of us have to grapple with “traditions of our fathers which are not correct.”.

And I just wanna understand better what people really mean when they use “brainwashing” in their descriptions of the church. I highly doubt any of them mean literal torture.

[Poppyseed]

Thanks Whoville. I appreciate your words and quotes. I suppose at the end of the day, anyone who says this is really just using it to support their own decision to leave. Perhaps it does neutralize the guilt. But it does, I admit, offend.

I do however think that sometimes behaviors or practices that are not core gospel principles get woven into the “straight and narrow path” when perhaps they shouldn’t. For instance, I grew up with loads of guilt (not necessarily coming from my parents) about how sewing and craftiness made a righteous mormon woman. It wasn’t until college and mission life that I learned to champion the value of having a scriptorian for a mother.

I guess I am trying to empathize and also learn so that I don’t make the same mistakes.

[Poppyseed]

Quote:

Brainwashing? Look at the word objectively, not in the context of religion. Brainwashing is a process of using torture and extreme or repetitive psychological shock to break a person’s personality, causing them to forget what they know or to implant a new or even multiple fragmented personalities. Is that really the right word to describe what happens when parents teach their children and raise them in the LDS culture and Church? No.

Ok yeah. I am looking objectively and i don’t think it happens in the LDS church meaning the most extreme definition. i guess I am trying to understand why people use that word when describing LDS upbringing. What are they describing then?

[Poppyseed]

Isn’t this what family get togethers are all about??? 😆

[Poppyseed]

Hi Bridg! Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

I don’t have any wisdom on this to share because I really don’t know, but I am guessing Val is right that if you don’t officially join the new church that your records would remain as they are right now. I suppose I could see the temple recommend being the primary issue more than membership.

I have asked myself over these past months if it was crucial to my membership in the church if my social circles weren’t LDS — something I would love to explore but haven’t yet. I also feel that I have invited nonmember friends to attend church activities or even services for no other reason than they were my friends and I wanted them to be with me on a special occasion or just for some good food. I can’t see how it would be different if you are the one visiting another group.

[Poppyseed]

I guess I am wondering what kind of pressure you are really receiving. I guess I can see a nudge from a bishop by way of a comment here or there. I can also see senior contemporaries sitting around talking out the implied “shoulds” but I am wondering why you would feel that everyone is looking at you like you are derelict in your duties. Many don’t go because they can’t financially afford it or have health concerns and are denied. It’s not like everyones health records are public knowledge.

I guess I see more direct pressure on the 19 yr. old males than I do anyone else. If seniors don’t choose to go, my experience is that I don’t see the backlash you are describing. Sometimes I guess I see some “keep up with the Jones” kinds of stuff among older folks. I live in the heart of mormon central and I am not hearing the attitudes you describe, but maybe I don’t see it because I associate more with a younger demographic.

Could it be some ancient guilt voice in your head that is filling in what people aren’t necessarily meaning to send your way? Sometimes my brain does that and I have to remind myself to SOOPH! (stay out of people’s heads )

On a side note, I remember going on a mission as a single sister and feeling a little backlash because I wasn’t doing my duty by staying home to get married. So interesting how these attitudes emerge in our culture. All the more reason to anchor oneself to the proper vision of things.

[Poppyseed]

Well, according to Moses there are many earths. I am not sure any of us can comprehend what eternal increase really looks like, but if there are more spirit children being created, I would think they would be assigned to a different earth. Doesn’t make sense to me that the war in heaven and information presented there wouldn’t include everyone that was associated with this earth. Angels for example are people who are associated with this earth. Moroni, for example, wouldn’t be deployed to another earth.

How’s that for a best guess?

[Poppyseed]

Hi Heber

This post really resonates with much of my experience with the “commandments” part of the church. It reminds me a little of the “God told me to push the rock” analogy. The one where after so much effort we get discouraged because we didn’t move the rock or think its stupid to waste time moving rocks that won’t move in the first place. And then God says,”I didn’t tell you to move the rock, only to push on it.” And then we realize that perhaps it was our muscles that he was trying to strengthen and perhaps had very little to do with the rock.

Challenges are interesting beasts as the pain of certain situations causes people to make interesting choices to avoid the pain. There is so much about obeying the commandments and performing those diligent strugglings or effectual strugglings that you are describing, that is more about the changes that God is trying to inspire in us and knowledge He is trying to write inside of our souls that can’t be obtained any other way. In this way the commandments seem like a very gracious gift as they provide parameters for safter strugglings.

It’s interesting how there are opposites in everything…..even inside the doctrines of the church or the commands vs. the reality of our circumstances. Maybe Eve understood it best when she taught Adam that we must know the bitter so that we can know the sweet. I don’t spose there is anyone in the world who understands the value of being raised with a father more than the people who don’t have one.

It’s hard and it isn’t my favorite part about earth life, but pain is probably the most effective teacher. What is the scripture about knowing the doctrine because you live it? Frankly, I don’t think we gain important knowledge (and I don’t just mean the kind that is wrote memory in someones head) any other way but in the trenches. There is no yellow brick road. At least I haven’t found one. There are only seasons along the way that show me and teach me about the opposites and everything in between.

Maybe its this process that helps us overcome spiritual blindness. And it really is about trust, obedience, faith and going the distance in diligence.

[Poppyseed]

musiclady wrote:

I have been struggling with this issue too, which in big part has led me to the trouble I’m having with my testimony. I feel I need a divorce. I pray about it and have for 17 years, and I really believe divorce is what’s best for me. But everything in the church teachings tells me I shouldn’t divorce. I’m being selfish, I’m tearing my family apart, I’m going against the doctrine and breaking covenants. Maybe it’s because I want to be happy for once? My fear of wanting to adhere to church teachings has kept me married all this time, even though I feel my answer is divorce.

Hi Musiclady.

I guess maybe I want to challenge the assumption that divorce = sin. I actually don’t think the church is completely against divorce. No bishops aren’t going to tell a person to divorce unless there is extreme abuse or some other such extreme. But we live in an imperfect world. Kids get married too fast sometimes. Maybe its ok to start over. It really does have to be between you and the Lord. He can see the future. He can see your needs and your losses.

I prayed about divorce too. And much of my early struggles were because I was reading God’s mind and assuming I new that the thought of divorce was obviously wrong. I learned differently as I tried to move forward in self trust as I combined that to my faith in God. I got a variety of answers that I didn’t expect. Most of them, I was surprised to hear, were throwing questions back at me about what I wanted to do or how I wanted to solve the problems. The answers were not dictations. Rather I felt God working together with me and the scriptures and the words of the prophets on the subject. He gave me encouragement and at one point I felt he would support whatever decision I made. And I was sealed in the temple. It takes courage to combine agency and faith together. But I really really believe God supports and guides us as we move forward in the driver seats of our lives.

I am not saying that you should divorce or not. What I am saying is that perhaps there are more answers available to you besides yes or no.

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