[Poppyseed]

Thank you, goodtruebeautiful, for your comments. I appreciate them. I think there is something inside of me that must understand this …..hazy and in the distance as it may be.

Quote:

Because the LDS church is a human undertaking, it’s going to manifest the full range of human morality, from the very good, through the mundane, to the very evil. Because the LDS church is man-made, some of the doctrines are glorious, others don’t matter, and some are just plain stupid. Perhaps, making ourselves aware of the entire spectrum of the Mormon experience is key to making peace with the Church, and ourselves.

I am getting the impression that you have decided that the church is NOT a true restoration with Jesus at the helm. Which is absolutely fine. I guess I am just wondering if I am reading you correctly. If this were indeed true, then why try to “stay” LDS? For me, if this important puzzle piece isn’t there, then the whole argument in my head goes peacefully away.

[Poppyseed]

Hi Phase III. Welcome.

There are times past and times present when the problems of church history bothers me. Sometimes it has caused me to wonder if Christ was running the show or if this was just another man made effort to follow God like so many before it. But time and time again, I too come back to peace when I consider doctrine or questions. And when I have experimented with leaving the church or considering another faith, I haven’t been able to duplicate that faith or experience the same spiritual experiences that I do with the church. So….. I think I have had to adjust my view or my definition of what an earthly church run by Christ looks like. If the definition of Christs church means that the history will be flawless or that the Lord won’t let the leaders blow it, then I suppose I would be right to conclude that this church must be false. But if God works with this church like he works with me, then its a very different proposition. I can fail and blow it and not quite get there as I give my best efforts and He stays with me, supports me, and leads me along. My weakness or progress or process seem to be ok with Christ as he helps refine me or help me manage things.

I don’t really need the church history to be perfect anymore. I still have questions and gaps in my understanding, but I feel peace that Christ is leading this group of sheep and loving the effort and nurishing the effort and doing His miracles inspite of it all. I think that is what the D&C scripture means when he says “….with which I the Lord am well pleased, speaking of the church collectively and not individually.” (D&C 1:30)

Maybe what I am learning is that all this muckiness is ok. Perhaps Christ is more tolerant of imperfect process than we are. Perhaps that is what makes his love more powerful than ours too. I think all I need to know is that Christ is leading me here to and that he is in charge of the work however it looks on the outside. Maybe to some the outward expression of obedience looks to us like my child’s crayon scribble drawings. But to a loving devoted parent, maybe it looks like a masterpiece.

Blessings.

[Poppyseed]

My mom is a temple worker. I will send her an email and ask about the authority question. I know she refers people to the temple matron a lot and I know the temple president answers questions too.

I don’t think its a matter of not talking about it. I think rather its the place. My father and I have talked freely about things inside the celestial room. In fact, when I have a question, he will suggest we do a session so we can talk about it there.

[Poppyseed]

I think maybe I better jump in here and say that I am not criticizing this site. I appreciate what this site is trying to do very very much. I am just trying to explore a variety of different feelings I have experienced while visiting here. I hope you all can understand that. Not trying to get anyone feeling defensive. I apologize if I inspired that. I am sure that my reaction perhaps is just that…..only my reaction and I don’t mean to say that this is my only one. I am a girl after all. I can feel all sorts of opposites at the same time.

[Poppyseed]

I am with you swim. But I don’t see the love being as profound without the sacrifice. He is God yet he bled from every pore. It wasn’t like giving away moeny to the poor when I have millions.

Each time I obey, I sacrifice my will for his. And why do I do that? It might be love. It might be faith or trust or an experiment upon the word. Slowly, my will and His will or my desires and His desires start to look more similar and perhaps the sacrifice becomes less and less or the thing I sacrifice may change as each part of my spirit and character and nature is given attention. King Limhi said he would give up his sins to know God. Knowing God is becoming like him, not knowing about him or just acting like what we think love is. This is the fundamental essense of becoming like Christ and what this whole church gospel thing is about.

[Poppyseed]

godlives wrote:

Quote:

I believe strongly that obedience really is the foundation of growth and progression.

My struggle is that obedience requires that one knows what is right and wrong, which is black and white. Most people would agree that murder is wrong, cheating is wrong etc. But most people that believe this don’t think drinking tea is wrong. I currently see the church as an organization of rules; I can’t drink coffee but I can drink a couple of energy drinks because it’s not on the list. So how do you live in obedience to rules that don’t make sense, other then to test faith, providing very little comfort? It seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of Grace, yet we as LDS teach a disciplinary Gospel. Do this is bad, do this is good.

I appreciate your feelings. I also appreciate that there may be some in the church who teach or parent or live their lives trapped inside this way of percieving the scriptures or the dictates of the church. It’s something that I have always rejected even when I have had to fight the tendancy inside myself to think this way.

I don’t necessarily define obedience as “right or wrong”. Rather its about God’s demands and my willingness to do what he asks. If JSmith said “Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves”, I think he understood that the vision of the law was more important than the performance of it — not that the permance isn’t an important and vital ingredient. And I also find it interesting too that the church didn’t lay out the lists of “don’ts” with regards to the WofW. They set it before the church and the church sustained the decision. A mutual decision between the church and its people to establish the practice. I think that if we are truly people of principle and we let those values or truths or wisdom guide our actions or choices, then obedience has power to make important eternal change inside of us. If all we do is obey to stave off the sting of the whip and the bite of nosey neighbors, then what have we really developed in terms of character?

Abstaining from tea is just an outter evidence of an inner commitment, not the definition of it. I often think of Samson and his covenant with God to never cut his hair. This covenant isn’t about haircuts or whether or not they are bad. I think in some respects the WofW is the same type of thing.

Sometimes we have to start our obedience process not really understanding the purpose behind what we do. Just like Adam and the alter. He didn’t know why other than God said to. Then God starts to fill in the blanks over time as we study and pray and absorb the tutorials of the spirit and learn the lessons that the law itself can teach. Samson obeyed and he had strength. We obey and God gives us strength or blessings as well. In the case of the WofW, the blessing is health and spiritual knowledge. And I want that. Heck! I need that! I ask God what I have to do to get that. Give up tea? Is that all? Sweet.

It is about submission and faith and trust and humility and discipline and going the distance in the dark sometimes in patience. And its important to know the being we covenant with. It’s not a relationship between me and the church or me and my social circles. It’s about me and my God. No other influence or invitation matters.

[Poppyseed]

I have been pondering this thread. All I can think about is sacrifice. If love is the goal and all the commandments hang on this, then how does one obtain the love within themselves? My gut tells me that its the process of sacrifice ….specically the sacrifice that obedience is suppose to inspire. Our savior loved us, not just by telling us, but through the greatest act of sacrifice. It seems to me that he would cease to be love if the sacrifice was absent from the equation. So why wouldn’t it be the same for us?

[Poppyseed]

It seems to me that the judgments of others come from lots of angles and sources. Just when you think you have postured yourself away from one set of judgments, another seems to find a way in.

I think the trick is learning autonomy and the love that is need to maintain it…..the love the goes is directed both in and outside of a person.

If we can be on our path AND be right with God while we are on the path, then the judgments of others matter very little. And we can let go needing them or being influenced or bugged by them.

I don’t know why we have this judginess problem in the church. I am perhaps guilty of it too. And I don’t think we were the first to struggle with it. I think the NT with all the divisions amongst the Jews shows that they struggled with similar things too. But it seems more and more that my devotion has to be a singular thing outside the influences of earth forces. What God thinks needs to be my focus as I work together with Him to adjust my course. I am realizing that I can’t always trust even my own evaluations of things as my fears and resentments and pains color things. It seems I have to rise above myself as well.

[Poppyseed]

swimordie wrote:

I would add that certainty has a great need to fear freedom of expression. I think in many cases, the culture of the church gets stuck in these unquestioning paradigms because the certainty of rightness trumps all. Truth is totally irrelevant when the goal is certainty.

Do you mean the need to justify ones position?

[Poppyseed]

Rix wrote:

I found this while doing my morning blog search, and was actually surprised that it came from an earlier LDS leader (in 1958). I thought of many ways this can be applied, and ways I think it is NOT being applied today. But before I start babbling, I’d like YOUR thoughts:

1) Do you think this is universally accepted in the church;

2) If not, why not?

“Be unafraid of new ideas for they are the stepping stones to progress. But you will respect, of course, the opinions of others [but be unafraid to dissent if you are informed.]… Now I mention the freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution you that your thoughts and expressions must meet competition in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth must emerge triumphant. Only error needs to fear freedom of expression. Seek truth in all fields, and in that searching you’re going to need at least three virtues: courage, zest, and modesty. The ancients put that thought in [the] form of [a] prayer. They said, “From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all the truth—O God of truth, deliver us.”

— Hugh B. Brown, Man and What He May Become, 29 March 1958

1) I honestly think it depends on who you talk to. it seems to me that the church is constantly trying to help people discover truths for themselves and think themselves.

2) If not, then fear is the reason. Or coziness of the comfort zone. It is my experience that this has more to do with the ideas of men mingled with scripture, more than scripture itself AND ALSO the culture that sometimes gets woven into worship services.

[Poppyseed]

Rix wrote:

swimordie wrote:

And, as a side note, addiction doesn’t come from a substance. It comes from an emotional disability. Just because drugs and alcohol are the most visible forms of addiction doesn’t mean that the WoW will keep you from becoming an addict. Eating disorders, sexual addiction, OCD, “work-a-holic”, severe depression, etc. are all forms of emotional brokenness that takes shape as an addictive-type behavior. Addicts aren’t made by the first drink or the first smoke. They’re made in the desolation of emotional abuse. (By self, by parents, by church, etc.)

Continuing the side note, that last sentence said loads, Swim! You can’t just post and run like that 😆

Hanging out here in Utah, I see addiction more than I’ve seen anyplace I’ve lived. There is the constant looking outside one’s self to find validation, relief, acceptance, love…etc. I see it in the twice daily big gulps and Red Bulls, going to the Dr. for antidepressants, staying at church to do “just a little more,” locking the den door and turning to porn for excitement, that extra Whopper to feel good for a minute….

…all to fill the hole in the soul created by the belief that they are not good enough in their natural state. Another way to look at love and fear is living from a place of abundance (love) or lack (fear). Even Ghandi, in his attempts to shed ownership of material things, said he was filled with more abundance when he didn’t feel attachment to physical things. When we feel “lack,” we constantly look outside ourselves for validation. Addiction comes when we never get the hole filled, but we keep trying.

This one hits me in the bread basket. Not knowing that I am good enough is my whole (insert appropriate explative here) problem. (sigh) Rix…. I take it back. All I need IS love. lol It seems the lack of love is what causes all the trauma in the first place! And it make sense to me that love should heal it.

Addiction is an interesting trap because our brains get focused on stopping the pain rather than really meeting the need. The need itself is often genuine and valid. It just seems to me that we get suckered into selling freedom for temporary relief and not really learning the lessons of love.

I don’t know about any of you, but I honestly think that learning the lessons of Love are some of the hardest. And not needing outside validation seems to be one of my biggest failings. Maybe its the churches fault. There are parts of me that do credit my Utah confined mormon upbringing for my current issues. But I don’t find the same flaw in the doctrine itself….just in the faulty understanding of teachers and parents and others. But then I think more broadly than that and reflect back to the war in heaven and realize the war is still being fought and that there are still casualties. It would make sense to me that where truth is, intense temptations would follow.

So…I need to learn to love myself and others too. What and where is the best place to do that? If I posture myself outside the law, can I learn the lessons I need to become better? I am not convinced.

Loving myself. Hardest dang thing I ever attempted. And pain has certainly blocked my vision. But I really really want and need to learn these lessons. UGH! I love the gospel and I feel I have to live it for love to happen. But I can’t deal with the dang church! It ties me in knots! How can those two things be there at the same time???

This is one of those moments when going to get a beer makes perfect sense……except that then I would be going to the liquor store stop the pain instead of meeting the need. And there it is again, Rix’s point being made. (Deep exhaustive exhale)

[Poppyseed]

Sometimes I think its the English languages fault! I mean we have these two words “believe” and “know” and it seems most of us, if not all, fall somewhere in between. Wish we had a word that explained what it feels like to know and not know at the same time.

Btw….I don’t bare my testimony anymore. I think it would take a mack truck and perhaps a million dollar bonus prize to get me up on that stage. For now, my testimony will have to be born in less obvious ways. For some reason, I don’t have trouble with weaving my testimony into my lessons. yeah…..I am a mess.

[Poppyseed]

I don’t see how commandments like the WofW are anything but from love. IF addiction and self indulgence would ruin our process, wouldn’t it be loving to give a warning and even more loving to couple it with a promised blessing.

Fear seems to travel with religion but as religions go, I don’t see the mormon church teaching fear based doctrine. I don’t see “Obey or you’ll burn in hell!” or if you go to that church God with punish you! That would be more fear doctrine to me. I think fear is inside of us and is the antithesis of love and I see laws like faith and repentance and forgiveness are ones that help counteract our impulsive fears.

Having said that, healthy fear is important to our physical and spiritual survival so its a gift to us as well.

[Poppyseed]

You think I don’t understand. If only I could help you understand how much I really do understand. Trite advice from loving but blind and deaf bishops…..been there done that. Believing that the doing all the “stuff” would save me from pain and searingly difficult struggle. Made that mistake too. Even made it again this week when I thought I had already learned it.

It has been my experience that the scriptures are here for us specifically for the battlefronts of our lives. I don’t know how it happens but God can use some unrelated verse about war and teach me how to love my mother in law. He can use a random, obscure vrs about some dude named Zoram and infuse into my heart that I my needs are not forgotten.

The scriptures CAN and DO help us in the firey furnaces of our trials. Just yesterday, I woke and determined to take off my garments and leave the church. You see the trials were too hard this week and no one was answering my prayers! No friend there to help me know I would be ok. And then there were my scriptures. I listened for the spirit. I read in hopes that they would help. I read Abraham 3. Now you tell me what Abraham 3 has to do with hope! But somehow, I woke this morning feeling renewed in my hope and more committed than before and like God understood the necessity of my strugglings. How did that knowledge come to me? Maybe I am just smoking pot and imagining the whole darn thing.

Learning to stand and deal are important life lessons for all of us. In fact, God used Nephi’s ordination to teach me those same lessons. His ordination! Ask me how God made it one of the most powerful moments in my life, but he did. He put the wisdom in me and left me to do what I would with it.

The scriptures aren’t the only source of truth. They aren’t the only words of wisdom that heal and lift and teach. But God can use them in powerful ways. I can’t not say that I am not familiar with the miraculous parts of the process. And I can’t say the process doesn’t work just because my 6 bishops and 2 SP’s were so blinded they couldn’t how insulting their words were. I am saying that we are all learning and that God is still inviting with simple short invitations and that He does keep his word and he does bless even if part of the blessing is the struggle itself.

[Poppyseed]

Orson wrote:

Quote:

Hi Poppy, I’m glad you share your perspectives here. I think we agree on the important points, but the barriers of using imperfect language often makes the process of communication more difficult.

I don’t know exactly what that means, but ok.

Val, your comments, as always are compelling and interesting and they resonnate with me. I think that there is amazing wisdom that comes from trying to obtain and live by the vision of the law rather than the motivation that comes from the sting of the whip and the bite of the dog. I have been studying a lot lately and the concept of intelligence is on my mind. What makes one more “intelligent”? I wonder about intelligence and how obedience gets one to better views of things as well as wider capacities. And certainly love is inside and around all of it as upon love hangs all the laws and the prophets. But that’s just it. All the laws hang on love, they aren’t done away or replaced by love. And I do think that God himself understands the benefits to personal experience, experimenting and taking responsibility for ones diviations, as you put it. That idea seems fundamentally LDS! Even if some don’t completely understand that yet. I feel that God is hopefully guiding all of us on personal journeys and he may lead one inside and outside the law as that may help a person to understand. That certainly seems to be the case with me. Yet he invites me to obey now that I have had my time outside the law. To obey things I don’t wanna necessarily do or things I don’t see meaning in yet.

My only reservation from your perspective is from a line of scripture. What about God’s will? When does ones deviations make one a law unto himself? And are those divations driven by love and even motivations of obedience or rebellion? It really boils down to God’s will vs. ours. If we love him, we keep his commandments. At least that is what the scriptures teach. If we discard the law and will of God behind it and justify doing so because of love, I think we miss an important truth.

I can see, as I do feel it too, that sometimes the commandments feel empty and the going thru the motions pointless. I wonder how the most righteous before Christ felt as they were confined to live the lower law of moses. And here we are in the higher laws with all possibilities restored and still struggle with the confinement of it. But I guess what I am learning in my journey is that my ideas of where and how I might find wisdom are not greater than what God would teach me if I would obey. Leaving the church and its way did not bring me peace or love or joy or knowledge.

I find it interesting that you use the WofW as an example. I absolutely agree with you that there are various perspectives that could help one live the law better, but the law isn’t only a bout health. It’s to be a sign between us and God like the children of Israel with the blood on the doorways…..as if blood on doorways was in any way powerful. It’s not the blood, its the sign the obedience creates…..the outter expression of an inner devotion. And if we simply do it, he promises us wisdom and knowledge about hidden things. Wisdom and knowledge! WOW! And if everything hangs on love, love just might be part of the revelation.

The church is the church is the church. It’s earthly and limited and if our eyes don’t extend beyond it, we will trip over it! Understanding God’s will for what the church is suppose to do for a person, that is the trick. And frankly I think some are too scared to find those higher views because the safety of the law feels so comfortable and they judge too harshly those who aren’t doing it like they are.

I remember a conversation on another site that was interesting. It said taht there was two kinds of people in the church. The “liahona” kind and the “letter of the law” people. The one who follows the spirit from moment to moment and the one that leans on traditional law itself. I wonder if God wants us to learn to be both. To understand the law but to be flexible enough to listen to the expedient commandments of the present. I wonder sometimes when I read posts here if people worry that they have to be the letter of the law kind to be good and that the liahona stuff makes one a rebell. If I read the scriptures right and understand Jesus correctly, it seems that it is the people who either get blinded by the law or who leave the law completely who miss it. And maybe being a little bit of a rebel is what helps one reallly progress. It seems like this might be part of what you are saying.

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