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Hi, thanks everyone for your support and great insight. Here is an update on my situation. I was not thinking of bringing up any of my concerns with my wife, but one evening 2 weeks ago, the conversation was such that I could not avoid it. So I plunged in and told my wife about my dad and went from there and also brought up that I have serious doubts without going into any of the facts. She was devastated, there were many tears. We discussed until late in the night until all tears dried up. Next day I stayed home from work, my wife felt ill and stayed in bed most of the day while I played with the kids. After a couple of days things got a lot better. We’ve talked a little about some things after that but not much. We’ve had some very good days, my wife has told me that she sees a big difference in me after my secret is out, that I seem more happy and like a burden is off my shoulders (and I do feel a lot happier).
Last Sunday the bishopric came and asked us for new temple interview (which will happen the coming Sunday), since they knew they run out. I talked with my wife and said I really don’t feel like I can answer the way it’s expected – this brought a new night of lots of tears and distress. My wife feels it’s too early to let anyone else know, before we have processed this more ourselves. And I can understand her completely, who knows what balls will set in motion… So I’ve pretty much decided that I will lie my way through the questions, even though I feel horrible doing this, just to give us more time to process this, and let my wife come to terms with my disillusionment in her own time.
Right now I focus on taking each day as it comes, and try to express as much love to my wife and family as much as I can.
Thanks for all the great replies. You’ve all given me very good perspectives and lots of things to think about. SilentDawning wrote:I think you might consider a qualitative cost-benefit analysis for the different courses of action you can take in this situation:
On one hand, being completely open will make you feel more genuine and understood, but what cost do you anticipate to your marriage? To your wife’s estimony? Is it worth it? Being quiet will cause personal angst, but will presumably protect your wife from faith-detracting ideas. Is the personal angst frlom keeping doubts to yourself worth the positive impact on your wife.
There are so many unknowns in this equation. How long can I hold out before I explode… or will it get easier with time to ‘fake’ it. Put everything on a shelf and just go through the motions. Have you seen the film Equilibrium, where everyone takes pills to shut of all emotions? The thought of ignoring all the doubts, feels like I would try to go back and conform to a society around me who are all taking these mind numbing pills… Or plug into the matrix again and pretend like there was no matrix…
The cost of telling my wife is hard to know, ideally it would strengthen our relationship, and we would be able to have deep and meaningful conversations again (after some time of heartache I’m sure), and we could try to work out things together. The worst would be her totally freaking out and eventually leaving me / causing an uproar in the extended family etc… So there is a big spectrum there of what that cost could be.
I don’t feel it’s a cost that her testimony/faith would be changing. I’ve long since left my TBM testimony and I can honestly say I don’t want to go back, the sad thing is that I am on this journey alone – I would more than anything want to have her with me on this journey, wherever it leads…
Currently my wife is in one of those ‘spirit has pricked her heart with guilt’ states where she feels the whole family needs to do better – to faithfully do homevenings, scripture study etc. Incidentally this comes at a point where all the issues has bubbled up to the surface in my mind, and is haunting me all the time, due to the issues my parents are going through. So it’s a bit of a difficult time…
Orson, thanks for your suggestions. I like the ideas you give, but I’m very afraid that I won’t be able to hold off the avalanch after I’ve started talking – but I’m acting out the conversation in my head quite often now, trying to think of what to say and what not to – so hopefully it will work. I have just not talked anything meaningful about the gospel or church with my wife in a very long time, so it feels uncomfortable just bringing up those subjects – I’m not sure I can do it in a normal conversation like way.
Old-Timer wrote:Porter, that’s important to consider – knowing nothing about your wife. Sharing concerns can be traumatic for those who view us as an integral part of their security.
I have no way to know how you should approach your wife about your concerns – or even if you should. If you are comfortable praying – or meditating – or just thinking deeply about it, do that – and then go with your gut, mind and heart. However you approach it, approach it with HER foremost in your mind.
Thanx for that insight Ray. I am thinking of how she will react, and how it would be if the situation were opposite all the time. I love my wife dearly, above anything, and REALLY don’t want to hurt her. That’s why I’ve put off talking with her for so long. But I want us to have a whole, healthy relationship, I don’t want to have secrets from my wife.
Roadlesstraveled, thank you for your personal experience. I really wish we could have walked this path together me and my wife. 2 yrs ago when I started stumbling on to things I brought up a few things with her (back then I was very much TBM), she was horrified and very upset and clearly showed that she did not want to know anymore about it. I reacted in a different way that I felt I needed to know everything, after all if the church was true, and we give up so much for it, it should hold up to scrutiny. But her initial reactions made me do all my studies on my own, and never approach her with it again…
There is more that I would like to write, but I need to sleep… Went to bed at 11, but lay awake in bed thinking until 0.30, then went to read on this forum and write a post. Hopefully I’ll be able to fall asleep now (1:20), just to many thoughts flying around, and to few sheep.
Thanks for the replies, Heber and canadiangirl. Heber13 wrote:Does your spouse know your dad’s feelings? Is it possible you can test the waters by sticking a toe in and first stating something like, “I talked to my dad the other day and didn’t realize that for some time, he has been disillusioned about church.”
Throw that out there, and see her reaction. If she doesn’t react too strongly, you can then go ankle deep by saying, “You know, I have to say, some of the things he told me are some valid concerns about religion and the church.”
She doesn’t yet, although I’ve been thinking about using that as an entry for some time now. Thing is, my dad practically got disfellowshipped a couple of weeks ago, for bringing up uncomfortable topics in HP group several times. He can still partake of sacrament, and participate in the ring when blessings are given, but nothing else. Isn’t allowed to answer questions during class, give public prayers/talks or hold a calling, and he’s not allowed to talk with people alone in the corridors. And this will be on probation for at least a year. My mum took this very hard, she was the YW president, but since the letter came from the stake pres, she didn’t go to church for several weeks, and asked to be released from her calling – first time back today. My wife thought it very strange that mum didn’t come to church… and I’ve thought several times to bring up the real story behind it, but haven’t had the guts yet.
I believe that no matter how gently I bring it up, she will be heart broken. Family wise we are very happy right now, have moved to a new house, everything is going great. My wife often wonders, what will be our big trial – as we see many couples around us struggling in their marrige / economy etc, etc. My heart sinks as she’s talking like this, as I know that what I’m carrying will probably be our biggest trial yet…
I’ve decided that I wont be throwing any of the facts that are troubling me in her face, just try to gently lay out that I have a problem with many things that happened in the early church, to a degree that it has shaken my faith to it’s core, I’m living by hope now and trying to work out things. I will offer that I would like to go through some of the issues with her, so she can understand me and we could work our way through this together – but I have no desire to harm her faith, so if she’s not comfortable discussing this I won’t bring up the issues.
Just her knowing that I’m struggling, and to what degree I’m struggling, I think would go a long way to make me feel more whole. I’m so tired of being afraid to talk about my inner feelings, thoughts and struggles with my wife. I feel like I am an empty shell towards her at times. I play way too much computer games atm, which I never used to do, just because it gives me a way to flee reality and my boiling emotions for a while…
Great to hear!! I hope I reach that state, but right now I’m still a struggler. Or maybe not so much struggling, I’m actually much more at peace than I used to be, but I’m still in the process of sorting out my beliefs – just don’t know what to believe anymore. But I’m not so worried about it as I used to be, I’ll take my time. I feel that as long as I’m not trying to deceive myself, and try to be honest before God, then I’m ok. It feels pretty good (most of the time) to leave the conformity/community belief, and find/own your own belief.
Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and comments. I like what you all said. I’m looking forward to seeing what changes God can bring forth in this beast of a church in the future Like Brian said, I also believe there is a core set of eternal values/”truths” that never changes, but the set is much smaller than most of us mormons have been thought to believe. And I think those truth is found throughout all major good religions (and good principles of society). We are so blinded by culture and tradition that it inevitably colors our belief about truth.
Welcome! I’m also pretty new member of this forum and find it a great place to share experiences and ideas. Heber13, I really like your comments. This is an issue I also have a problem with. I currently hold a TR, come summer it will be due for renewal and I’m not sure how I will answer the questions yet. I want to be able to participate, especially since my wife holds the temple so dear. I’m trying to find a way to honestly answer the questions such as to qualify me, I’m not there yet though. I still have many issues I’m working through and trying to re conciliate. There are many things I don’t know what to believe, and I’m growing agnostic on many issues and doctrines. Currently my thought process is that I’m trying to see great symbolic meaning in the rituals – and to make them symbolic of my marriage covenant with, and my love to, my wife. I’m trying to find new personal meaning in the rituals, what they can symbolize in my personal relationship with God (that I’m trying to rebuild). I have a hope that God exists, and that he cares about me. And that God wants me to grow in capacity to love, serve and find happiness and live a spiritually fulfilling life. I’m trying to make the rituals and ordinances symbolize my desire to place my trust and hope in God. How this process will go I’m not sure yet, it’s only been a few days since I’ve started thinking along these lines really. I’ve been on the verge of total disbelief in everything even God. But I want to believe in God, I hope that he exists and somehow will guide me – and I’m working my way from there. I’m hoping I can arrive at a point were temple service can be meaningful and uplifting to me, and where I can feel comfortable there… but as I said my process with this has only just started.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Porter Rockwell, your avatar is creeping me out!
Lol, yep, Rockwell was a scary guy. Supposedly he got a blessing from Joseph Smith once that said no bullet or sword could harm him as long as he remained in the faith, and did not cut his hair – like Samson in OT. Judging by your avatar you should be able to handle a scary guy though
Orson wrote:Porter, I agree – God IS love. You cannot get further away from God when you’re honestly TRYING to love. Life is a learning process, if you’re living and learning you’re doing it right. Have you ever considered – what if we ARE able to tap into the spirit every step of the way? Obviously I’m not saying it’s the same as what your old impression of the spirit was, but what if it IS the spirit – and we just need to discover what that REALLY is? What if love is the major portion of what the spirit is? What other terms could we use to describe it?
Interesting thought Orson, I like it. Love really leads us to do what is good, in an unselfish way. To be ‘guided’ by love, could really be the same as be guided by the spirit… I will think more of this, thanks for your perspective.
Starting on this journey, I have also often felt: ‘What if I’m displeasing God with my very thoughts?’, ‘What if all this is just a way for Satan to deceive me so I lose my testimony and become an incapacitated servant, preventing me from bless the lives of others?’, etc… This thinking is so very ingrained in us. I remember when I last was in the temple, I was not feeling the spirit there, my concerns weren’t wiped away as I’d hoped for… I was pretty scared that now I’ve really gone against God, and he must be very displeased with me.
But now I think most of the feelings I had was caused by the great confusion I had (and still have). I don’t think God is displeased when we think for ourselves, when we strive to learn the truth. As long as we are truly honest with ourselves, and with God, I think he/she won’t hold it against us. The God I view is loving, understand us every bit. I think we are much less led by the spirit than I used to think, much of our emotional reactions come from what we’ve brought up with feeling is secure and right. And of course we all have a moral compass that tells us things which are right, (but this compass can become very confused with wrong teachings I’ve realized). We are truly here on our OWN, to find our own path, our own way to increase in our capacity to love, to serve our fellow beings, we won’t get the spirit every step of the way telling us what to do (at least I’ve never had).
I can see that there is temptation in the doubts that we can get… we could be tempted to think that just because this and this and this is wrong, I’ll throw away everything. I’m free, I can cheat on my wife, I can start leading an immoral life because it really doesn’t matter. That would be very harmful. But as long as we are honestly trying our best according to our conscience, I feel you can’t be off much wrong. How well I believe in the ‘letter’ and in the ‘truth’ as explained in priesthood/RS has nothing to do with how good a person I am, I’ve come to realise. This journey has really brought up to my eyes that what truly matters is how loving we are, how we treat our fellow man and our relations – this is what defines us…
Heber13> I’ve read some 300 pages of RSR and really like it sofar. I feel I’m getting to know JS alot better, and I’ve gotten a very different view on how ‘revelation’ is received. Very enlightening indeed. I’ always thought Joseph pretty much got everything word for word from the Lord – no errors. Now I think much of his own desires, thinking and emotions where mixed in his revelations. He was also ‘seeing through a glass dimly’… I’d be happy to have some other good books recommendations (I suppose there might be a thread for it though – I’ll go look). inbeing, swimordie> thank you for your support. It’s been many ups and downs on this journey. Sometimes It feels exciting and liberating, I don’t need to believe all things literally (many things of which I’ve always been uncomfortable with) – other times I feel weighed down with guilt and like a hypocrite in church and with friends. Of late it’s more up than down though.
My wife knows a little bit of my feelings, she knows I’m reading RSR and trying to work through my faith struggles. Although we talk very little about it. She’s seen over the past two years (since our ‘talk’) that I’m very faithful to her and the kids, so I think she feels secure and happy with me. I’m hoping to come to a point where we can talk openly and honestly about our faith, we’re not there yet though.
The actions of many of the brethren in protecting the members gives me an image of “As a hen gathers her chickens under her wings”. They are doing their best to protect us from the dangers outside – a side effect of overprotection is that the chickens will be weak when inevitably the danger creeps in. Living in a too clean environment leaves you with a very weak immune system. I think with the now ever present internet, the dangers are creeping in at an alarming rate to many of the brethren. Whether they like it or not many of us chickens will be exposed to danger, and we will have to develop an immune system, and strong wings for ourselves.
I’m a bit mixed in this issue, for one I don’t go around talking about my findings openly myself – don’t want to be the cause of someone losing faith (only part of the reason of course, self perservation is probably a much bigger part), but I definitely wish for more openness from the church. The protectiveness, I feel, gives many members a naive view on information and as Heber says, everything becomes Anti-Mormon and something which should be shun.
All this supposedly faith promoting history, has when you become acquainted with the uncensored facts, the quite opposite effect – it turns sour and is faith demoting instead. Nowadays I never get a warm fuzzy feeling any more when some supposedly faith promoting history is brought up in a talk…
Thanks for the warm welcome everyone Quote:by Tom Haws » 26 Jan 2010, 23:52
I loved reading your intro. It’s inspiring to see how slowly you have proceeded, and your intent to build some kind of a new relationship in the church. If you are able to contribute, I feel we will all be blessed.
I’m a very calm person by nature, and it takes much to get me rowled up, and I find it always best to not make rash decisions. I though it very good advice what I read in different places, to go SLOWLY, not burn any bridges etc. It’s amazing what some time and perspective do with these kind of emotions and knowledge. Were I previously only was hurt, and felt deceived, I know think I am more enlightened, and have an appreciation of the greyness of things. Before, when someone would have asked me what I believed about an issue, I would always answer what the church believed, but now I have to think for my self – as many have said it’s great to own your own belief.
Quote:by Old-Timer » 27 Jan 2010, 03:07
Cool. We finally have an enforcer here!!
Yep, that’s me, I’m here to enforce some order
😈 . Just kidding in reality I’m a pretty soft person and on the opposite side of the spectrum from Porter. But I thought he was a pretty cool guy which I came across while studying mormon history. We all, at some level want to be a manly macho guy, right?Quote:by dash1730 » 27 Jan 2010, 04:18
It sounds like you are into a good book that I’m not familiar with. What is RSR?
‘Joseph Smith – Rough Stone Rolling’ by LDS historian Richard Bushman. It’s a cultural biography of Joseph smith, which faithfully brings up many of the things you never here at church, and weaves the story together by examining JS in a cultural context. Bushman is an active member serving as a Patriarch, who I think has a pretty sober approach to church history. There are a couple of podcasts with Bushman on the mormon stories site, which I enjoyed listening to.
