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SilentDawning wrote:
I feel exactly that way…the church culture can interfere with Christlike behavior in some people. I think it was Mark Twain who said “I don’t mind if you get an education as long as it doesn’t interfere with your thinking”.I would like to modify that to read:
“I don’t mind if you commit to the LDS Church, as long as it doesn’t interfere with your spirituality”. Unfortunately, it does in many people — particularly those who buy into the textbook pattern a good Mormon is expected to follow.
LOVE IT!:clap: But…HOW to we separate ourselves from the “fluff” while still maintaining our spiritual path and experience in the church?
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I also notice the people in the community can be phenomenal. We sometimes get the feeling that we are “chosen” or somehow better than the rest of the world “the salt of the earth” in the LDS church. But in terms of behavior, there are a LOT of good people out there. A ton of them, and they do more than serve their own churches…they are out in the community working very hard.Amen to that! Why is it that if we were to “neglect” our church duties and, instead, contribute to the community, we are made to feel like we wronged Heavenly Father?Dark Jedi, I think I started my “list” some years ago when I realized that there is a huge difference in church CULTURE and church DOCTRINE and I am now seeing that maybe some doctrine is not the same as the GOSPEL.
It wasn’t until just recently that I became aware of Elder Poelman’s “famous” talk…interesting stuff…and right up the alley with what I believe.
Could it be that we simply need to identify and strip away what the church culture is so that we may more easily identify the most important parts of the Savior’s message?
Maybe we then need to figure out what was RESTORED…meaning, what was it that the Savior had in place during His ministry here on earth that was lost until JS?
What things did JS add to the gospel, whether through revelation or on his own?
When I talk of church culture, I’m referring to…funeral potatoes!
I’m talking about the guilt trip that we are made to feel if we don’t attend a ward function (at least I felt guilty…and maybe it was self-imposed).
I’m talking about the absolute black and white of our behaviors in regards to church activities…should we allow a haunted house for the fall festival or not? Should we have Santa visit us at the Christmas party or not?
I’m talking about VTing/HTing almost being a religion in and of itself.
I’m talking about paying tithing out of fear instead of out of love.
Watching TV on Sunday…playing outside on Sunday…
Appearing perfect…you know, to be an example.
What I don’t have is a better list.
Obviously some church programs are put in place for a reason…maybe that reason is to help us become better people. But I’ll tell you…VTing…sure does stink sometimes. When I was in the RS Pres. I soooo wanted to just let each sister PICK her own VTing route. I wanted to let them select 2 or more sisters that they would really like to get to know better and let them have at it. That way they would have a voice in their route…they would have ownership…they would be excited about it. Instead…we assigned routes with careful thought and consideration and always got push back from a few. It just made me think…the way our current VTing is run, it just seems to have been made for a different time and a different place.
Anyway – I’ll let you throw your thoughts in now.
I tend to be too verbose. I’m not at all concise like Ray … yet.
Oh, Ray! You are simply wonderful. Thank you for your reply!
I spent the better part of this morning/afternoon trying to come up with an answer to that last question. My first version was too personal and left me feeling vulnerable. My second version was too snarky. My third version…well, let’s not mention my third version.
:crazy: I think I will say in answer OON…Don’t take me too seriously. I certainly don’t.
On Own Now wrote:QuestionsAbound wrote:But, let’s be fair about it all and let women choose to live how/what they may as they see fit.
Gosh – how anonymous ARE we on this forum?
Dark, no need to apologize. You totally gave to me what I give to others. I just found it funny! Ray, you are so right. Now that I know this was based on a missionary’s vision some decades ago, I’ll not give it much more thought.
Thanks, all!
SamBee wrote:It was also a specifically American message as well, as opposed to an Old World one.
Meaning that when missionaries would go to foreign countries, they would also teach about the wonders of America?
Dark Jedi…you put me to shame. I am always telling people to google things … putting personal responsibility on their shoulders. :thumbup: To the others…it seems that some church members have dreamt of tent cities. The author says he saw a vision while on his mission and he promptly wrote it down. He saw those in the Los Angeles area were called to live in tents in St. George, Utah.
Other members who have had this dream seem to believe that when the time comes, they will “feel” inspired to leave their homes to live in a tent near the Rocky Mountains. These members believe that they are not to tell anyone of their move. They believe that they will move from place to place and the Lord will direct them when/where to move.
I went here to scan the article:
http://www.abysmal.com/LDS/Preparedness/why_tent_cities.pdf The author says that no official church doctrine indicates the need for tent cities…but that he sees “secondary evidence” that suggests that the church is planning for this by their building of larger girls’ camps in Utah. The author concedes that perhaps the church is planning ahead for church growth and has built larger facilities for such an idea.
Either way…I tend to shy away from “fear mongers” and those who cry loudest about “doom and gloom”.
I mean, I get that doom and gloom are coming, but…if we are prepared we shall not fear…right?
I like that so many people are trying to find the pure gospel. I wonder, though, when we start to flesh out the pure version…will we find that we have essentially written what we find with the LDS church organization? I think what we will find is a very cyclical line of thought.
Still, I want to follow this thread since I also want the “pure” version.
So, for me…what I have in my mind is this:
I am assuming that we all believe that Jesus lives and He had an intended purpose and that He encouraged us to become like Him and His Father.
He taught us to love each other.
The “good news” is
He taught us that the atonement helps in many ways (though that is too deep to go into here).
He taught us that we would be resurrected after death and that He would provide a way.
Perhaps everything else really does fall under just a few umbrella thoughts…
the beatitudes, for example…could all fall under “How do we love each other?”
On Own Now wrote:
Even though you finished this statement with a smile, I know from some of your other posts that you are serious.The only thing I would say is that polyandry does not make polygamy OK and polygamy doesn’t make polyandry OK. In my view any form of plural marriage is disgusting and I will have no part in it.
You are right…I am serious…but only b/c I believe that people should be able to live and worship how/what they may. If consenting adults of sound mind choose (of their OWN will) to live in a polyamorous relationship, then why would I care one way or the other? I mean, choosing outside of religious obligations or commandments…choosing because they really want to live that way.
What I don’t like is the notion that a man
mustbed multiple women in order to gain godhood. That just doesn’t sound like a “warm and fuzzy” religion to me. A god who commands his sons to enjoy multiple female bodies but consigns his daughters to “just one”…Just One Male Body…on occasion…is not a god that I care to know. So, smiley or no smiley – the variety differing personalities could very well be a welcoming change.
I also agree with you that one doesn’t make the other right, but I don’t think that one is necessarily wrong (unless it’s done out of guilt or obligation or fear or under duress or forcibly, etc.). But, let’s be fair about it all and let women choose to live how/what they may as they see fit.
I also tend to wonder about just how “doctrine” it was in the beginning, but there are many discussion threads about that very point and I’ll not take up space here in starting a new one.
I will say…I’m glad you remember me from before. That makes me feel like I might really be part of this community.
🙂 It may be no secret that I would love polyandry. For the “variety” if nothing else. If one husband is an introvert, perhaps the other could be a great conversationalist.
But, that’s me.
About JS’s polyandry…I guess I never knew the church kept it secret. I am making sure MY kids know all about this stuff now so that they aren’t “hit” with it later. But I make it more of a “matter of fact” deal and not so weird to them.
What I can’t figure out are the following:
If a sealing is required for exaltation, why would these polyandous wives choose JS over their husbands? In some cases the husband was an active church member. Was there a teaching about PM that we don’t know about that made both these women AND JS think that it was okay to NOT help the husband along in his path to exaltation? If the church is all about family, JS should have turned these women away and should have insisted that they create a unity with their husband…and father to their children. Because…if you think about it, that man’s children are now sealed to JS…and not to the father. Not entirely fair in my mind…but again, perhaps there was a teaching that we didn’t get to hear about.
Also, I just can’t get past D&C 132: 61…if any man espouse a
virgin(cough, cough), and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man( ahemand to no one elsewhich contradicts vs. 41…And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
Although, vs. 41 gives *me* hope that polyandry could exist.
I do believe that in heaven we will be given the option to unite with others…I can’t imagine NOT being able to “commune” with others as we see fit, especially when we will be filled with so much love.
Anyway…
What else will the church “reveal” through these papers?
GBSmith wrote:I would add, though I don’t really understand it, the eastern orthodox doctrine of theosis, that Christ’s atonement was to enable us to become like God. I think it’s different that the idea of progression and exaltation and more like giving us the ability to be become what we are meant to be.
This resonates well with me.
As Brad Wilcox recently stated: We aren’t “earning” heaven, we are “learning” heaven.
Obviously as we learn we will be progressing in a way, but I like the idea that we aren’t merely checking off ordinances in our “progression” to heaven.
SilentDawning wrote:For the longest time, I believed it was true all the way up and down. Now, I’m not sure. But my life is so wrapped up in it, I have to go, and I don’t want to confuse my kids. And who knows what work God might do to change my mind if I’m wrong.
Personally, I think the church has become a wealthy organization that has discovered doctrine and policies that generate high levels of commitment from a large enough portion of members that it can operate without accountability. Nor does it appreciate its members who go the extra mile, but fall all over the inactive to ask them to come back. Totally strange and upside down.
Oh, my gosh! That’s where I am!!
I go b/c I’m not sure one way or the other and I’d rather just go…in case the church organization IS a divinely authorized organization.
And…yes…your comment on the wealth creating “fear” is about right too!
I don’t know how to multi quote here… The comment about “God has my devotion, not them.” … Excellent. I think that Heavenly Father knows my heart.
And…I DO need to be kinder at home…my poor kids! lol. I am too quick to snap at them when my mind is preoccupied with other frustrations. A release may alleviate some of that “noise”…I think I have too much noise in my life anyway.
And…I can still be a faithful member AND ask for a release…
And…this will be a BIG step for me if I ask for a release. I know it may seem small to some, but this will be my first step towards a small independence from the church
organizationbeing my “all”…my “religion” I AM a bit conflicted about my faith/religion and the church meetings on Sunday. I want to feel empowered to say, “No. Not at this time.”
But…I also want to have faith that the Lord will stretch us when we need to be stretched. I’ve seen myself grow in callings that stretched me in ways that I would not have allowed myself to do on my own…but my heart feels that I need to create healthy boundaries around me and my family, while still loving those outside those boundaries.
I just need to know that it’s okay to ask to be released.
I need to know that Heavenly Father won’t be disappointed in me.
I guess I need to know how to feel at peace with asking for a release, when we are taught so strongly that we “never ask for a release”
