[QuestionAbound]

nibbler wrote:

If the lord is down with forgetting about it, there’s no need for a church leader to try to dredge it up out of the past.

Ann wrote:

Do you say you’re not discussing them, or do you say there’s nothing to discuss?

If you say “I’m not discussing that” it might feed into people’s curiosity and make them push that much harder. I say there’s nothing to discuss because according to the lord and the atonement there truly is nothing to discuss… and that’s my orthodox answer.

I think this is the best answer I’ve seen.

Good job, nibbler. :thumbup:

[QuestionAbound]

I’m sorry to be MIA these past weeks.

The presentation went well-enough. I presented what we could find in scripture as “fact”

And then…the bishop got up and did his part and told the youth and parents that this was a commandment once.

For some reason, that comment from him made something break inside of me. Like, I literally felt something snap in my heart. I don’t know why or what, but it happened and it was a bit paralyzing for me.

I’m still stinging a bit from it and so I just haven’t wanted to post here as a follow-up until I could do so calmly.

I thought I had found a “happy” place with the church organization until this assignment.

Not only has it put me in a place of loss with the organization, but it has even created a huge wedge between me and my husband and that, I feel, is the greater loss.

We have had many discussions on this topic. He is a convert and a TBM, through and through.

That said, he doesn’t believe that JS practiced polygamy.

After the “commandment” comment from the bishop, my husband defended the bishop’s comment by agreeing that it was a commandment.

I finally asked him: “If it was a commandment, then WHO was commanded?”

JS? Well, my husband doesn’t think JS practiced it.

BY? It can’t be him b/c the revelation came to JS.

My husband had no answer and we haven’t spoken of it since.

Part of me feels like my trust of even my own husband has diminished. Over … THIS! Of all things.

I’m just at a loss…

But, THANK YOU to everyone who supported me through this whole process.

I appreciate this community more and more.

[QuestionAbound]

Thanks to everyone for the support!!!

For those who feel that I should focus on the modern-day timeline, where and how do I begin?

And, what can I include? There is SO much…so much denial…so many marriages…

So much of what we “know” isn’t concrete. Some of what we have is second or third-hand information, so I can’t talk about it like it’s fact.

I am not 100% sure that JS practiced polygamy.

Ugh.

[QuestionAbound]

Heber13

Quote:

Or explain how not everything done in the past is right for us today, or how little we really know from the records. So…avoiding all that…it really started because Joseph was thinking about it, and it is in the bible and ancient cultures, from which our society has progressed and is no longer acceptable.

Yes!

ALL that really needs to be said is: Some people thought it was a good idea and practiced it. We don’t practice it today and we don’t teach it today. The end.

But, that won’t cut it, so…

Looking Hard, this is what I’ve added this morning:

1856 – Brigham Young says that his wives have not seen a happy day in years and he would rather his wives get along than to fight b/c if they fight, he will put them out

1861 – Abraham Lincoln signed law making polygamy illegal (BY marries 6 more wives after this).

1866 – Brigham Young says that men can only become gods if they practice polygamy

1876 – D&C redone: 101 taken out, 132 added in

1890 – Manifesto where Wilford Woodruff says that public polygamy will stop b/c it’s illegal and they believe in obeying the law of the land.

Church still practices polygamy through sealings (offshoots in Mexico/Canada)

1904 – Joseph F. Smith says that the church will excommunicate people who practice polygamy

1958 – Bruce R. McComkie said that plural marriage would come back to the earth (not official spokesman)

1998- President Hinckley says about polygamy, “I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal.”

2006 – Church PR dept had interview with LA Times:

Question: Is polygamy gone forever from the Church?

LDS PR: We only know what the Lord has revealed through His prophets, that plural marriage has been stopped in the Church. Anything else is speculative and unwarranted.

And that bolded part is I think where it should end. :clap: :thumbup:

Anything else is speculative, including Elder McConkie’s remarks.

[QuestionAbound]

I want to back out.

I have 10 minutes for timeline. I could list several polygamists in the Bible, not all of them were righteous, not all of them were blessed for doing it. If I’m going to make a list like that, I feel like I should also say, “we don’t find this to be a commandment, but these men had multiple wives…list…”

But then the BOM makes it pretty clear that polygamy isn’t a good thing.

Then here comes BY and the forgotten desk copy of the revelation…and here we are today.

What a mess.

Here is what I have so far (obviously need to figure out just what I will present) and I’m still working on gathering info.

First polygamous mention in the Bible: [list]

[QuestionAbound]

1-bishop assigned it

2-the presentation will be broken up into different parts

3-my part is to present a timeline. I want to go all the way to the Bible to start the timeline. I WANT to include everything! I’m not sure how that will go over.

“

Quote:

My 1st reaction is: you’re walking into a HUGE minefield

My exact reaction as well.

When the deep questions come, NONE of us have an authoritative voice on the matter, so it’s gonna be a problem.

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I’d probably create a presentation that exposes the dark side of polygamy

Definitely want to do this!!

Quote:

teachers saying reckless, and, in my opinion, spiritually bankrupt things.

Excellent wording

Quote:

I think most LDS girls upon learning about this go into a long, deep, private reflection about their very identity and worth and come out injured, whether they realize it or not.

Injured for a really, really long time, too. And these young women will one day be young mothers who will have daughters and will repeat what they’ve learned along the way.

Quote:

Even as a young man full of raging hormones

And we have a few crass YM in our ward who will delight in hearing this.

Oh, boy.

I just can’t even….

[QuestionAbound]

Has anyone else noticed that when people leave the church organization, they also leave friends behind?

I have had a few friends leave the church…and they severed all contact with me and our other friends in the ward.

Do you think they realize how hurtful that is to us left behind? We are left confused and just so hurt.

Maybe they need an article on “How to love your LDS friends when you leave the church”

[QuestionAbound]

And I’m grateful for life-saving surgeries and the skilled hands of physicians.

I’m grateful for radiology and the imaging technology that we have today and for family who shows up to help with anything and everything when there is a need.

[QuestionAbound]

I go because my kids like to see their friends and as a homeschooling family, we look for ways for our kids to connect with others.

Me? I wouldn’t go to this new ward if I were on my own. The lessons lack real substance. The questions asked and the answers given remind me of primary. One RS teacher in particular drives me batty. She skips the manual and talks about her and her family and her problems and her solutions and her insights and her…. :crazy:

So…I guess we go for companionship as well.

*Sometimes I go to check out the outfit of our plastic sister…the one who gets a new cosmetic procedure done every few weeks. :shh:

I USED to go because I loved to sing with the congregation, but honestly – with a baby on my lap for the last who knows how many years, church is not a place I go to be spiritually fed. I’m busy feeding another little human during church hours. :thumbup:

[QuestionAbound]

Not sure if this counts, but our bishop refuses to meet with people during church hours. He is in Sunday School class and priesthood when the time comes. The clerk’s office is closed as well.

Only the librarian remains at her post – I think she likes the conversation she gets from class escapees.

[QuestionAbound]

Maybe I’m channeling BKP, but sometimes I think that Mormonism was easier when things were cut and dry…when interracial marriages were frowned upon, when gays were not really part of our discussion, when single teen moms were sent away to have their babies…

It seems that when we started to be “all inclusive”, things got messy.

To be fair, I’m not saying that I agree or disagree with the above, but it just seems like it WAS an “us vs. them” mentality and maybe there was some comfort in that for me. At least, I felt like there were boundaries. Now, the boundary lines are blurred and I sometimes don’t know what separates us from other religions.

If the gospel is simply: Love God and Love Others…then what do we have that other religions don’t have? The priesthood for baptisms?

Since I don’t care for D&C 132 (not sure it came from the Lord), I also have to realize that if we dismissed that section, we also dismiss the teaching of eternal marriage. If that’s the case, then we really don’t have much that other religions don’t have.

We’ve talked and talked about what IS the restored gospel.

No one really seems to have a clear answer.

I Could never be a missionary – I wouldn’t even know what I would be selling.

[QuestionAbound]

I have a friend who talks often of a dream she had of packing up a church-owned semi with her year’s supply of food storage. In her dream, she and others who actually had a year’s supply were invited to move to a “safe” land somewhere in the west.

She has seen a large movement of members of the church in moving to the west in real life. I’m in the south and I have also seen many of our members move out that way.

Not sure what to make of that, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

She firmly believes her dream is a revelation.

Whether it is or not, I like to listen to her preparations for “the call.”

[QuestionAbound]

WHAT IF….

What if the next Priesthood Session of GC was nothing BUT women speakers?

1 – how awesome would that be?

2 – how many men would walk away complaining about it?

3 – who wants to suggest that to the GA’s?

What if during the next EQ social, 2-3 women were present as the RS representatives…you know, in case something happened. Much like the men are present at RS functions.

1 – how awesome would that be?

2 – how many men would walk away complaining about it?

3 – who wants to suggest that to the GA’s?

What if the EQ and the HPG and even YM invited sisters in to teach a few of their lessons once in a while?

1 – how awesome would that be?

2 – how many men would walk away complaining about it?

3 – who wants to start that idea in their wards?

What if the executive secretary in wards were callings given to women?

1 – how awesome would that be? Can you imagine how organized the bishop would be with his schedule?

2 – how many men would walk away complaining about it?

3 – who wants to suggest that to the GA’s?

Maybe a general a Women’s Advocacy Committee could take in suggestions and concerns and present a concise but clear list of those concerns with the men at the top.

Good ideas?

Really, though – the next question that seems to be popular is HOW can women be heard without coming across as whiny or angry?

[QuestionAbound]

Ann wrote:

Hmm. I hope there aren’t any free-for-alls in RS.

One issue with women being fearless to speak up is that we WILL get flamethrowers and those who live to complain. I think maybe men are a little worried that if women were given the all clear to speak up and that they WILL be heard, the men might be ousted. 🙂

My mother’s ward’s RS is fraught with petty teachers who incite arguments. Those women need to be duct taped. There is a place for heated discussion. RS is not it. Women should feel safe when they come to class and should expect to be discussing the gospel in a sisterly way – and maybe when we get out of the Presidents of the Church manuals that can happen a little easier.

Women who choose to speak up should do so with tact and class.

I would love to lead a meeting where an ordain woman was present. If she could present her view without venom, I think I would welcome it. And that would apply to anyone who might want to express an unorthodox view – no venom.

[QuestionAbound]

LookingHard,

I think there is another forum here that may touch on some of the sentiments expressed in this thread, so I might check there to see what is being said, but I agree with you …

It is a tiny step. It’s nothing that we don’t already know and it would have been better if, say, Elder Nelson had said something like, “Bishops, consider calling a sister to be the Sunday School president. Consider making changes to the ward mission leader and call a sister to serve in that capacity.”

You know, get more sisters into ward council and maybe that would help?

I don’t know.

The agenda and discussion of WC can also set the tone for what sort of female input is needed.

I know I’ve had experiences while serving as RS Pres where I spoke up in WC and was able to put a damper on some obnoxious practice.

I’ve also had my fair share of dealing with Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum who served as bishopric counselors – what a joke. Men like those two make me think that if women ran the ward things would actually get done…on time and done well.

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