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DarkJedi wrote:
I think you’re going have to make your own list QA – otherwise you end up exactly where you are, looking at the list of what someone else teaches or believes.
I’ve thought about that very thing.
Sometimes, though, I just need someone to bounce ideas off of…I need a common list I can work on.
Cremation is one issue.
Wearing white shirts all the time is another.
I only have one pair of earrings, but man alive, if you want to see the RS sisters start to whisper, show up with 2 earrings in each ear.
As far as what the Bible teaches…we have to be careful there…the Bible also says that women should cover their heads while praying. It’s bad enough that we have to hide our faces in the temple…let’s not take that further.
Old Timer wrote:I then shared with them the idea articulated by a friend that we can get so passionate about doing what we believe to be what God wants that we end up being over-zealous and going beyond what was commanded. We can believe that tithing is important – and figure that if 10% is good, 11% or 60% has to be better; we can believe that the scriptures are important – and eliminate all other books from our lives; we can believe that the Sabbath is a day of rest – and sleep all day each Sunday; we can believe that missionary work is important – and harangue people until they avoid us like the plague; etc., etc., etc.
We discussed the concept of using scriptures not just to teach us “the good parts version” (anybody recognize that reference?) but also to help us avoid making the mistakes other people have made (even prophets) throughout history.
I have been out of church for several weeks due to health reasons and I SO needed to read over your lessons. Can I move to your ward and enroll my kids in your class?
The over-zealous part…I used to be that way…I am either black or white. I’ve never been comfortable in the grey…I find it now difficult to know “how” to behave. I’m too old to start my life over!
:geek: Thank you for taking the time to blog about your lessons.
:wave: Should we start a discussion thread to list the things that have become part of our culture, but have never been part of our doctrine? Old-Timer wrote:Part/much of the message, depending on what someone terms “the message”: all of what I see as the
core message of the “Restored Gospel” (a subjective, personal view, I know); most of the theology, with various twists that are my own takes on it; some of the cultural aspects (but not a lot of other cultural aspects); not much of what I see as cultural but most members see as doctrinal truth; etc.Please, please elaborate.
:thumbup: I know DarkJedi has asked these same types of questions before, but I can’t find a decisive list of “culture vs. doctrine” stuff.
I NEED such a list b/c, for me, that’s where I need to start rebuilding “me”
For SO long I was a “rigid” Mormon…I looked down upon those who drank caffeine…I thought poorly of those who were “always sick” on Sunday…thought women should wear pantyhose (or at least knee highs) to church…etc, etc. And…my own family wasn’t holding FHE or family prayer or scripture study. Heck, I didn’t even crack my scriptures unless I was in church. Yeah, I’m very ashamed to say that I was one of those beautiful white sepulchres (Matt. 23:27). I know that scripture b/c I used to pin it on others!
:silent: I was so caught up in the…well, I don’t even know what, but I was caught up in the wrong thing! Those things aren’t doctrine…I’m not even sure they are cultural, but maybe they are. I need to be able to separate those things that are just not that important and do what IS important…whatever those things are.
Yeah – I’m changing me from the inside out. I guess I’m trying to “cleanse the inner vessel” but I need help.
As a brief aside, my mom is stressing about her funeral (years and years away) and keeps asking people if she should be cremated b/c “the church” says that it is discouraged. And I finally had enough of her talk and said (in a not so nice way), “Look, that counsel is NOT in the scriptures anywhere that I can find. The only place it’s mentioned is in the handbook that a bunch of men wrote. If you want to be cremated, then say so! I can’t imagine that those who were caught in the world trade center towers are going to be damned b/c their bodies were burned and not buried. Don’t be bullied by someone else’s policy.”
😡 But it’s that kind of thing…is cremation a cultural thing or doctrinal? And why do we stress over such things?
God is not the author of confusion – but at least *I* seem to be confused by what I SEE going on around me, what I’ve been taught all my life and what I SHOULD be doing/knowing/believing.
:crazy: Okay, I’ve rambled enough…sorry to hijack the OP…but what Ray said really stuck out at me.
Reflexzero wrote:Ours was a regurgitation of Elder Oaks talk on priesthood authority from April conference.
!!
Our SMs are ALWAYS a regurgitation of a conference talk! Always!!!
Is this new church policy??Each speaker talks on the same talk…we hear the same talk 3 times…always with a man closing the meeting…I can’t stand it.
I’d much rather know that those who are speaking did some research on their own on a topic unrelated to any recent GC talk.
Oneofmany wrote:(FYI – my first thought afterwards was poor RS president, more meeting for her to attend.)
I’m not sure how I feel about your comment there.
I was a RSP for many years and attended WC each Sunday…I kind of feel like your comment is in line with “women don’t really need to be there anyway…”
But, maybe I need to not be so sensitive.
Anyway … I will say that when the suits would troop in to WC and sit on the back row (I was on the front row with the YW Pres – our primary pres was often MIA), they would almost look bored…why? Because we were about to discuss the exact same things they just discussed in their previous meeting in PEC. When the bishop would ask us sisters for input on a decision, we would give it and more often than not he would thank us and then say something to the effect of, “well, we men have already talked about it and here is what we are going to do.”
It rubbed me the wrong way. I didn’t like the patronizing tone. Either he wanted our input or he didn’t, but don’t pretend.
Since our ward does ZERO calendering in WC, there is very little point for any female to be there. Primary, YW presidents should go to know what’s going on in the ward and to make sure everyone knows about upcoming youth activities that need ward support.
Our WC was really a glorified missionary meeting.
Anyway – I know I sound like I am bitter. I’m not. What I am is…frustrated. When there seems to be a simple solution to many of our problems, I have a hard time understanding why they aren’t followed.
I’m not totally sure that PEC/WC will be any more productive being combined…most assignments are for the men anyway.
And…maybe my experience was largely colored by a brand new bishop from a different ward who liked the way things were done in his previous ward…
maybe.
I’d be interested to know what other WCs are like.
Because years ago WC used to allow time to go over the calendar…make sure ward events were planned…make sure there were no conflicts, etc.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Just repeat in your head “People are idiots.” It helps.
Louis CK riffed on the idea of Heavenly Mother on SNL, then also went on to point out the lack of diversity at BYU. I have to wonder what his Mormon connections are.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/03/30/louis-cks-hilarious-monologue-from-saturday-night-live-covered-heaven-atheism-and-god-as-an-abusive-husband/ My new mantra!
And that comedy act. I laughed out loud! I had to read it to my kids. I know…probably a little sacrilegious, but…pretty funny, anyway.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree with you JG that the priesthood is generally misunderstood. As far as I can tell there is no actual power, there is an authorization to perform ordinances. The power is God’s and God may (and I think does) answer the prayer of a woman just as well as the blessing of a high priest.
I would love to talk more about that. I’ve not considered it as being misunderstood before. I grew up thinking that a PB would be the “end all”…you get one of those and you are set.
Which, as many of us have seen, it NOT the case most of the time.
How many people were NOT cured of cancer even after a PB said that they would be?
I’ve actually never seen a PB heal anyone of anything…ever. So…I’ve always wondered…what is the purpose of a PB? I mean, what can a PB do for me that my own personal prayers can’t do?
No, no – don’t answer that here – that is probably something already discussed somewhere in this board, so I’ll look for it, but still…it’s a question that I had even as a little girl.
Where did we get the idea of priesthood blessings, anyway?
If the PP is just for ordinances (which actually feels right), then how did we get so sidetracked?
Old-Timer wrote:It’s also interesting to point out that many women (and men) would find mom3’s husband’s letter condescending and patronizing, even though I don’t read it that way at all. I guarantee it would have caused a firestorm online, just like the PR statement did.
I would have gone for the free food and a night away from the kids.
😆 hawkgrrrl wrote:Maybe the church will end up just for men.
lol.I wonder if the land of Amazon (where Wonder Woman lived) would be ideal for feminists.
But…I agree with much of what you said.
People hate to be told “no”…especially when that decision is based on anatomy.
I wonder…could a transgender person be admitted to the priesthood session?
I know that they can’t be ordained to the priesthood, but … maybe to the session?
Roadrunner wrote:
* Acknowledge publicly the doctrines that don’t have to be doctrines and which just turn people away. WoW, I’m pretty sure the modern concepts for all three of these differs significantly than what Joseph and Brigham practiced.You know…when the TR question asks, “Do you obey the WOW?” I have to wonder how obese members make it through!
I mean, dangit…the WOW is MORE than coffee and tobacco!
What about eating meat sparingly?
What about eating grains a plenty?
Yeah – that is something that should be reconsidered.
Roy wrote:My first reaction was that I don’t hope to reform the church – i just try to navigate it the best I can.
Primary is my pet peeve. I would love to come up with some kind of mission statement for primary. Is it to help each child feel the love of God or to provide an atmosphere so that the kids would CHOOSE to be there? Then everything we do would need to contribute to the mission.
.
Here, here!!
:clap: Oh, goodness. Our primary has THE most amazing chorister. She has the kids moving and singing and it is downright F.U.N. If I were a kid in primary, I would totally try to talk my friends into coming to church with me.
BUT…but then our primary president gets up (after preparing her sharing time during the songs) and I swear it’s like she personally deflates the room. It’s dry…it’s boring…it’s painful.
Why, oh, why can’t primary make learning fun…or at least engaging?
🙄 mackay11 wrote:I am still outraged by black men being denied the priesthood. It sickens me to the stomach to think we had a racist policy.
I don’t feel the same way about women being denied it. Don’t get me wrong. I would welcome them getting it and, if asked, I see no reason why women shouldn’t have it. But, if I’m honest, I simply don’t see it in the same way. I wish I did and I wonder why I don’t. Why am I, apparently, still passively sexist but hate racism?
It saddens me to think that I am still part of the problem and a barrier when considering reform.
I agree with you a bit here.
I’m not interested in being a “priesthood holder” – that seems weird to me.
BUT…I don’t like the fact that women are not allowed to attend the priesthood meeting.
THAT makes me a bit angry.
:thumbdown: DarkJedi wrote:So, what would I like to see changed/reformed? Frankly, the priesthood is not one of them. Although I do see that women could certainly be treated more equally in the church, I also see progress there as mentioned in the letter, and I foresee more progress. I would like to see:
1. More emphasis on teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and less emphasis on other teachings (tithing, for example). I know that most things can be related to the gospel, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’d like to see more actual teaching/preaching about Jesus and what Jesus taught and I’d like to see Jesus mentioned more than he currently is.
2. The church has become much more open, especially about history, over the past few years and I think this needs to continue and improve.
3. I’d like to see Sunday meetings revamped, shortening the time and perhaps even eliminating a meeting. I’d advocate for a two hour block with SM and SS, and hold PH/RS less frequently, perhaps monthly and perhaps on a day other than Sunday. I’d also advocate for fewer meetings/activities overall. Perhaps making the ward council meeting the most important meeting, giving it some actual administrative authority and taking over some of the responsibilities of the bishopric (like planning SM, for instance).
4. I’d also like to see the temple recommend questions revised, with less (or no) emphasis on the WoW and tithing. I realize these both indicate a level of commitment, but I also realize we can be committed without necessarily keeping these more open/visible commandments. IOW, it should be more spiritual than temporal.
5. I think the leadership of the church should emphasize their humanity more. That is, I believe they should be more open about the idea that they have faults just like everybody else; that they, too, have faced trials and might have questions; and that much of what they say is their opinion and understanding, not necessarily God speaking through them. Along with this (and #2), I believe the idea of infallibility of the prophets, and the 14 Fs, should be openly and actively refuted.
So well said!I’d like to see a woman be the closing speaker in SM!
I once spoke with my husband and he made it VERY clear that I had ONLY 10 minutes to speak and that he would be given 20 minutes. Nice.
Is the church leadership afraid to let a female have the microphone for more than 10 minutes?
We had a “missionary” Sunday today…ugh…and I sat there as all three MEN speakers talked about “finding and teaching”…and it occurred to me…I bet MOST of our church members don’t even know WHAT to teach!
A SM topic on your #1 … for an entire year would be amazing!
mackay11 wrote:I also think it’s a smart move that a woman signed it. A woman acting as the spokesperson for the Lord’s church and declaring doctrine. Prophetess Deborah would be proud.
AGREE!!What would I reform?
*I* would ask that temple promises be made available to members BEFORE entering the temple, or at least before they enter the endowment room.I also think that the sealing ceremony should be written out and explained to couples before they enter the sealing room.
Have we EVER seen anyone walk out of an endowment room during own endowments b/c they didn’t like what they heard? Nope…it would be socially awkward.
Allowing people to know beforehand what is expected would probably bring in more “committed” members…those who had a chance to think things through and make an educated choice…not a choice based on social settings.
