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Another link for you but this one favors a North American setting for the BoM and touches on the DNA issue http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/11/best-evidence-for-book-of-mormon.html?m=1 To put the above in context I hadn’t been a member in 20+ yrs. I don’t remember having all this corrrealated stuff. It was shocking. I miss the rouge good old days. Sorry to resurrect an old thread but archaeologists are still mystified about who built the pyramids, how old they are, or their purpose. Some say they were tombs but I don’t recall any sarcophaguses found in them. Some say they are power sources and part of a world wide grid. We still can’t figure out how or why they were made. But the biblical account says the Israelites were making bricks not hewing stone from quarries and transporting them. I don’t think the biblical narrative supports Giza as the locale. A more interesting approach would be whether the Israelites were the Hysko-shepherd kings or not. That said… I was only wondering why the googlebot can log me out and make my gmail account my user name? I searched Google not and I got this thread. Why? Heck if I know. Ask the Lord.
Thanks Sheldon for the op. I jumped links to various blogs and ended up reading JJ Dewy’s story. During my last bout of activity I was SS teacher. We were in the OT. I rarely attended RS but my sister was the institute teacher. She needed me to help with the lessons because her CPA hubby was unable to assist as much because of tax season. It was all good at first because I didn’t have the manual. It was supposedly on sections of the Standard Works so my input was mainly on what I was inspired that the particular sections were about. Made crossword puzzles that needed reading the scriptures necessary to solve. When I got the manual, wow. It didn’t help that a training session the week I got the manual warned of divergence from it. It was saturated with 14F-ish principles. I couldn’t dispute my TBM sister in a co-lesson (didn’t attend the training) but I didnt assist or participate anymore. Then i was called to RS to teach and there it was again. i did not magnify that calling needless to say
I enjoyed the book called “life and travels of Mormon and Moroni” by Jerry Ainsworth. Also Hugh Nibley wrote a book called “An Approach to the Book of Mormon” and you can read it here: http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/old-testament-and-related-studies/ The Ainsworth book has a meso-american approach. I have some books that are not LDS related that explore unconventional history and have diary excerpts that claim that some native American tribes were fair and light haired but now extinct. If you are interested I will dig I’m my storage shed
From my experience, I would rather seek out a Catholic priest or a Jew that is a descent of Levi or better yet a Cohenaim, and confess since either might have the authority by right and give the appropriate answer to the TR interview. Which sins are only thoughts anyway since I’m too old and tired to actually go commit them, rather than face the roulette wheel of local justice This. This is the main factor of my inactivity. I could not accept or perpetuate THIS. Not in a teacher capacity. It is ironic that a seventy attended my adult SS class and I was released. I was happy with that calling ( we were in the OT rotation), and after Malachi, I planned to tell members about the Macabee reign to fill in the gaps to the NT. We had a few weeks before the correlated NT schedule. The previous teacher got us a little ahead of schedule. The stuff in the adult manual was almost primary-ish to me (probably overly critical on my part). Then I got called to RS. The manual was 14F-ish. There was a “bitty committee” that was unwelcoming to investigators and newbies, especially over the issue of “appropriate attire.”
I’ve already faced displinary actions and was exiled 20+ yrs. Not gonna martyr myself over the latest manual but not gonna aquiesque either. couldn’t do it.
I can accept a talking snake or donkey. I can accept the BoM is true whether a stone in a hat (or as a commenter in hawkgrrl’s funniest comments where a poster said it doesn’t matter if JS put his head in a hat or a horse’s arse to translate). Even Paul in some of his epistles admitted it was his opinion only, and BY, as self assured as he was, said we should get our own revelation. Bereans would not do it. standard works do not support a borg mentality or extremism.(at least the NT). I cannot. Or maybe I make excuses since I immensely enjoy mild barley drinks
Here are some excerpts from Hugh Nibley’s “Old Testament and Related Studies, Before Adam”. Maybe there aren’t in Nibley fans in the house but I liked the book and its free to read here: http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/old-testament-and-related-studies/ Quote:So we might well ask: What about those people who lived before Cain and Abel? What about those who disappeared from sight? What about those who were not even warned of the Flood? What about those many, many who visited the earth as resurrected beings? What about the Watchers? What about the sons of God who should not marry the daughters of men, and vice versa? And what about the giants they begot when they did marry? What about the comings and goings of Enoch’s day between the worlds? What about his own status as “a wild man, . . . a strange thing in the land”? (Moses 6:38.) Who were his people, living in a distant land of righteousness, who never appear on the scene? What about the Three Nephites, whose condition so puzzles Moroni, until he is told that they are neither mortal nor immortal? (Mormon 8:10—11.) What about the creatures we do not see around us? What about the Cainites? What about the nations among whom Noah will have surviving progeny?
Speaking of Noah, God promised Enoch “that he [God] would call upon the children of Noah; and he sent forth an unalterable decree, that a remnant of his seed [Enoch’s through Noah] should always be found among all nations, while the earth should stand; and the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come.” (Moses 7:51—53.) Methuselah boasted about his line as something special. (Moses 8:2—3.) Why special if it included the whole human race? These blessings have no meaning if all the people of the earth and all the nations are the seed of Noah and Enoch. What other line could the Messiah come through? Well, there were humans who were not invited by Enoch’s preaching—not included among the residue of people not entering Enoch’s city. They were “the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain . . . had not place among them.” (Moses 7:32.)
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Quote:Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God’s affection or even a right to exaltation—for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared. God assigned them their proper times and functions, as he has given me mine—a full-time job that admonishes me to remember his words to the overly eager Moses: “For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.” (Moses 1:31.) It is Adam as my own parent who concerns me. When he walks onto the stage, then and only then the play begins. He opens a book and starts calling out names. They are the sons of Adam, who also qualify as sons of God, Adam himself being a son of God.
If Sunday School manuals would focus on questions instead of the “answers” that overly simplifies the Genesis narrative, class would be much more interesting. And would help dispel YEC theory among Mormons that want to be spoon fed.
I tried the links on mormonheretic’s blog about the plains Indians article but says “not found”. I did find other good stuff. Perhaps its my ph? I don’t think any one person has the answers but its probably best if you keep to researching it yourself and search for different puzzle pieces by examinig theories written by others, archeological/anthropology findings (both mainstream AND unorthodox), books by enthusiastic amateurs that have taken upon themselves to research BoM evidences, etc., and put those pieces together to make a picture that is beautiful and inspiring to you. However don’t cling to that picture too tightly, for as another member has the quote “we see through glass darkly” in their signature, it is true. Sometimes when our vision is obscured, we have to feel our way and use our other senses besides pure logic/intellect. In the natural world things are observable, can be tested for validity and reliability, but trying to fit these pieces to the more puzzling pieces of the things of God requires the use of our other senses that do not respect the rules of 100% logic.
You’ve must of had a profound spiritual experience from reading the BoM? There is no reason to not cling to that just because it may not be accepted as logical and verifiable to others. That is personal and your individual experience and you don’t need to prove it to anyone. It is YOUR gift to share or not. And if you share it and others discount it, that doesn’t lessen its intrinsic value.
Thanks for the replies everyone. Nibbler, I love your analogy about all of us being experimenters and the Edison quote. But now I must work on not being prideful since I just glorified myself by thinking I am as a mighty worm when I’m just the dirt the worms abide in! lol, Well worms do get to dine on us after death (unless we are cremated). Repopulate… interesting. Im going to look that up and Karen Armstrong. Ray, thanks. Its hard for me to read tone when we are all behind screens.
OMGoodness hawkgrrl! So funny! I love them all and just got through 2010. This one was especially memorable in ’10 about 3/8ths down on the page. LOL . . Quote:Latter-day Guy, commenting on Aaron B’s post “Barfing for Jesus” at BCC:
My favorite story along these lines comes from my brother’s mission in Ukraine. Short version: his comp was experiencing the thunder down under. (Public restrooms in that nation are apparently as common as gold plates and holy grails.) That evening they try to get to the house of a member in the area, so as to use their facilities. The poor kid has to stop every couple of dozen steps or so in order to encourage his sphincter to keep fighting the good fight. Finally, they arrive at the member’s house, ring their apartment bell, and see the lights click on upstairs.
“It’s too late,” the companion says, furiously attacking his belt and fly.
“What are you talking about!? We’ll be inside in ten seconds, and you can use their bathroom. WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?”
“It’s too late.” And it is. Conversation is ended as he takes an explosive––nay, cataclysmic!––dump on the front steps. He rummages around in his bag and finds a Joseph Smith pamphlet (sorry, Joe) to try to clean himself off with.
By now they can hear footsteps coming down the stairs inside.
“Run.”
“What?”
“RUUUUUNNNN!!!” he yells, hiking up his drawers after a final effort at defiling the pamphlet. They arrive at their apartment later, and burn that poor Elder’s garment bottoms.
That week at church, they listen sympathetically, and try to comfort a member family that was the victim of a disgusting anti-Mormon prank. Apparently some hoodlums left LDS tracts on their porch, covered in human feces. The elders teach an impromptu Sunday school lesson on adversity, and all are edified.
Quote:I like reading your views and how you balance a literal acceptance of the biblethath skepticism on the church and speculative doctrines.
Thanks Heber! I try to strike a balance. When I had my initial FC, I wanted to become atheist. I was so angry at God. I was ex’d for having a child out of wedlock yet there were many males who had committed fornication (including my brothers) who were not disciplined and were still going at it!
Of course I was given a copy of “The Miracle of Forgiveness” (SWK was still the prophet at the time) and reading it only made me feel more hopeless and angry. And I need not mention the being a woman in the church with the sexism, polygamy(I was not sheltered from it being in Baptist country–they made sure that any mormon in earshot knew), my childhood issues with my own father (pretty bad), plus the “equal pay for equal work” fight was still fairly fresh in my memory, and reading section 132 and how the Lord would destroy Emma if she didn’t accept all the other wives, made it very difficult to stay LDS in my mind or come back, rather. I didn’t see any benefits as a female. Working hard in a plywood factory to support my daughter and struggling to get by made me think there was nothing in this world or the next for me. But God showed mercy and let me rage at Him without being smitten. I have gotten In binds where nobody was around to help and had to humble myself and ask for divine help… and I got it. Miracles. Lots of them big, from small things. And I was nowhere close to being righteous. I also had many profound spiritual experiences, some negative some positive
I came back by reading just the gospels in the NT. just good milk parts. I discovered that Jesus advocated for women. I believe He advocates for me. All of us.
But back to science and Genesis. I may not be a PhD as some here but I have taken college science courses. I see that evolution has some demonstrable truths. But I don’t buy into the ape to man theory or any of the macro evolution stuff. There are no conclusive missing links and just because they dig up some bone fragments of an old hominid and name it Lucy doesn’t mean she is my ancestor.
To me these scientists are just as guilty of comfirmation bias as I am. I would rather join a biblical archaeological team to look for Solomon’s stables than find my monkey grandma. That is depressing. A quote I read long ago that said if evolution is completely true (given there is no God in the equation) means that life came from nothing, therefore means nothing, and is going nowhere. So my life would have no more cosmic significance than an earth worm.
