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Lol that is so sad and so funny. If its any consolation many women feel the same as you when trying to be what a Mormon guy wants. Its an impossible mix of standards and some women just end up faking it. And then the guys complain after they are married that she “changed.” I think its hard enough to find a mate anyway… but then add in the Mormon complication. It is a scary- huge task. I don’t know that non Mormons will be better. They might be better in some ways but other benefits will be lost, on the whole. Maybe you should just drop your expectations of what you think you want, don’t worry about whether she is LDS or not and see what happens. You need to make your list of what you “need” though and don’t compromise that. Just be very careful about what you decide you really need. Sometimes wants are confused for needs. Meoclew wrote:I have come to believe that, while those symbols are highly useful,
they are not inherently required to either keep your covenants or to make it back to God’s presence.
I love this! Thank you. Perfectly said. I have come to believe the same thing. I just kept thinking and turning it around in my mind… Would my God, my father who is perfect love, hold me away because I do not wear a certain symbol? I just can’t see that.
I have read the other suggestions on how to answer the temple questions, and I still struggle with them thinking I cannot answer that question and feel like I am doing so completely honestly. Yes, if you turn things around enough ways, you can make an answer fit. But it still seems like more of a distortion of the truth on my end if I answer yes to the question “do you wear them day and night?” I know full well that I haven’t in years and have no desire to. I thought about wearing them once in a while just so I could say yes, I thought of other ways to justify a yes. While it’s acceptable for me to know other people here doing it, I don’t know how I feel about that personally. I had been wanting so much to go to the temple and be sealed my youngest son. My other kids were sealed to me in my first marriage but my 2 year old baby is from my second. It cannot be heaven without him. I have suffered much torment because my current situation will not allow me to step foot in a temple. Maybe for years. Maybe forever.
But as I started thinking about my problem with symbols… that symbols are a useful exercise as a spiritual constant reminder, I do not believe they would keep me from the God I believe in. If it would keep me from God, I would not be sure I would want to worship that God. My God would not be so petty.
And then I started thinking… and what is the temple? It is a symbol in which symbols are exercised, practiced, and taught. It’s all symbolic… every last thing about and inside the temple. Will God really not let me keep my baby because no matter how much I learn of charity, and no matter how pure my heart and my service to others, I did not perform all the necessary symbols? I think I would not want to worship that God. Is it so necessary to seal families? The husband/wife pair I get, sort of. But as I read somewhere on this board, I think it was Brian, said we seem to picture out small nuclear family sealed: as in a husband and wife and all their little children frozen as children forever. At some point those kids become adults, and while I while always love them and have motherly feelings for them, I expect them to someday be my equals, leaving me to be with their spouses and children. And if everyone is sealed, all the way back to Adam and Eve, we are all sealed to everyone, including our exes and such, so is it redundant? IDK. As the other thread pointed out, just as funerals are not for the dead, but for the living, perhaps temple ordinances are not so much for the filling of the letter of the law of the Gospel, but for us in our confused mortal state. We need to have exercises to get us focused on eternal principles, to turn our hearts to service, to take steps in disciplining ourselves etc. Maybe it’s not the end, but a step of discipline that can help us get to the end. Perhaps there are indeed other steps on other paths that can help us achieve the same end. That is just one step now that many people can take in this world, in this dispensation.
So I thought maybe temples are not as essential to salvation as we currently think. Maybe they are an exercise in disciplining our minds and hearts. They are good and worthy symbols. But they are symbols. Most of those symbols, as we know, were inspired from JS’s experience with the Masons anyway, and not detailed directly by God. So maybe I can come up with my own symbols and do my own meditations that can accomplish the same thing. Maybe I don’t need to go to that place and go through those motions, and endure the longing and torment that I may not make it to that place and it will cost me my child, because a petty God dictates it must be so. Maybe this is a heresy that will send me to hell, but I don’t think so. I long to be with my Father, I yearn for things of the spirit and of growth. I do not think He would cast me away because I must find my own path to Him.
Still, I went to the Brigham City temple open house. As I walked through those halls and beheld the most beautiful details of the celestial room, how I longed to be there in the quiet, just sitting, thinking, communing. But my hands are tied and I cannot get there unless God opens a door for me that I cannot. I have tried so many times. It has to do with other people and their agency and I have no control over them. But my recent thoughts have brought me to a place that I am letting go of that guilt and angst and terror that I might not be doing everything 100% right for my kids. I will have to find my temple outside the temple. And if God wants me, He knows where I am. And I am still not putting on my garments until and if I receive a personal revelation that He really wants me to.
Sexist jokes… totally OK as long as they are in true jest and if you can dish it you should be able to take it. 😆 So I am stuck on this post. What do women want? First I started answering what I would want. But then I thought, “Yes, but my life experience has led me to wanting some very specific things. They don’t need to know what
Iwant because these guys are not looking for me.”They want some examples of what most usually fresh-faced-never-been-married 20-something-year-old women want. So I started writing out some answers. But they started looking like so many pop-psychology books on the subject. Really, the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus series are very good. There is a book called something like “How to Make Anyone Fall in Love with You” that explains much of the psychology of mate attraction. Lots of others I am sure you can pick up anywhere really. ***Half.com!*** Be responsible with money. That’s my first suggestion. Never pay full price for something new that loses value as soon as you touch it, and works just as good used. Never pay full price for books, for a start. Spend money but spend it wisely and on things that count! Secondly, one can never underscore enough the value of good personal hygiene. Showers every day people! Take care of your teeth!
What I would want personally is probably reflective of what most second-time-around women with some serious life experience would want. I don’t mind sharing at all, but I think we are mostly talking about how young, never been married men can find someone right? Unless someone says otherwise I will assume the former and keep my long essays about what I and other back-to-the-drawing-board women would want.
RiceandBeans, Making me think of Brazilian food… yumm! I agree that LOVE in a VERB. Not a noun. It is an action. As an action it can be chosen. Americans tend to miss this concept. They think of love as a noun… as a thing. Generally, a magic thing that is something that just happens and you can’t control it or change it. In my experience, this is just chemistry talking, and maybe the hope of perceived commonalities… and one more very dangerous factor. This “love” is generally our subconscious telling us we NEED that person for something. And the subconscious is rarely able to make good decisions! This is how people end up in very bad relationships and they always say “but I love him/her!” Scary stuff. I never want my subconscious to make a decision for me again! This love is the one that fades. Chemistry fades. And if your subconscious ever decides it can’t get what it needs from that person anymore, it’s all over. I think most relationships that are successful started as the noun, and then at some point evolves, by choice, into the verb. I have been married twice and with both husbands sometimes had to make definite choices to stay in love. That is not to say it was less real. If anything, it is more real.
About the looks factor, I don’t complain because I am not attractive. This is not a sour grapes issue. I am not bragging by any means. Just making a point. I am pretty enough that I never had trouble getting dates. But it would piss me off to no end when I would be dating a guy who I could tell that if I had a baby with him and gained some weight I would lose value. (I am not stating that every guy was that way. But a sad number of the ones who were attracted to me were that way.) I wanted my looks to be the icing on the cake… not the whole freaking meal. I am fully aware that at now at 38 my looks will soon be fading. I will limp what I have along as much as I can but if the main factor for attraction to me was looks, it will soon be gone and I don’t want to feel like I lost my value. If a guy chose me based on mostly looks, there is nothing to hold him to me as the beauty fades. There will always be prettier and prettier women every year. Neither of my husbands were particularly good looking and yet I was very attracted to each because I chose to love them. I chose them. I chose to ignore the wrinkles as they appeared, the weight as it came on, and the disappearing hairlines. I chose to focus on those factors that I found very attractive. I want to know that while my husband feels passion when he looks at me now, and while he can say and believe “Wow you look so beautiful today” that if I got in an accident and my looks were taken he would still be there for me the next day. I would feel that for him… I just wish it could be more reciprocated.
It’s funny you say this. I have thought if your goal was soul building/learning it actually makes much more logical sense than the LDS model. I am going to write out some maybe silly ideas I have had here but they are thoughts that I entertain. I thought back to before I was a parent. I had all these opinions on everything from strollers and pacifiers and diapers to discipline. Then my first son was born. I realized that I hadn’t known a thing, but now I was worse. Because I was a parent and I had experience, I thought for sure I knew how it worked. I was even more opinionated and judgmental than before. Then I had my second son. He was so different than the first. It was then I realized that I didn’t really know anything at all.
The more I have seen people in my life, from ages 19 to 91, people seem to be this way. I thought if it was true how they taught me in Sunday school, that when each of us was called to come to this place we were told “you are going to go down to a handicapped body’ or “you are going to go to this abusive family” or whatever, of course we would have jumped at the chance as they say we did. We had NO concept of what it would be like and what we would be getting into! But then as we are born and we grow, we realize life is hard. But then people really become know-it-alls and it only gets worse with age. (As a general rule- always exceptions!) People assume because something in their life has always worked a certain way, they cannot possibly fathom that it does not work that way for everyone.
It seems to me that one life isn’t nearly enough and we are possibly “worse” after just having one. I thought that the only way we could really get an accurate sampling of life is either to live multiple lives, or to have something close to a vulcan mind meld/borg sharing of consciousness type of thing after our journey here. Everyone comes down here, everyone has their experience, and everyone reports back. But we couldn’t just share in a verbal or even visual report. It wouldn’t be enough as far as communication and learning in concerned. We each would have to actually be able to experience each others feelings, to see through each other’s eyes, as if we were that person.
I really don’t like the idea of reincarnation because I can’t think of too many other words other than “hell” for the thought that I have to come back here and go through all this pain and hell AGAIN. I would tend to stick with my latter idea, but really if it was done in such a way that we truly experienced all experiences of others, it would be exactly like having those multiple lives anyway. The net effect would be the same. IDK. I just know that I am tired of learning through pain. Can’t I learn from good things for a while? Or can’t I learn from boredom? Lots of people have boring lives! I am tired of hearing that you-learn-from-pain-crap mostly spouted from people who have generally little pain in their lives! OK sorry for the rant… give me a moment while I reign in my negativity and become my positive self again…
I have often thought if you were going to build a utopia… how would you do it? You would need to gather a people who had not one slightest inclination for any type of sin. Not an easy task! There could not only be no lying, stealing, cheating and murder, but there could not be any envy, greed, intolerance etc. Everyone would have to be focused purely in heart on serving the greater good. How do you do this? You would have to train an entire population to eradicate every single tiny sin. You would have to teach them pure and perfect love. How do you do this?
A thought occurred to me when I was in my 20’s that has stuck with me and keeps seeming to remain true. I thought about all the pain I had experienced in my life. 100% of every whit of pain I had ever experienced aside from ILLNESS and ACCIDENTS (which I would include weather with accidents) had come from SIN. Not always mine, but SOMEONE’S sin. Sin is the root of almost all pain. Illness and accidents come from being mortal, nothing can be done about that in this realm. But sin is so much more prevalent than we imagine. (If anyone else has an idea how this paradigm should be changed or altered please feel free to add. I am open.) Even the headaches of life. Small things caused by someone somewhere not doing their jobs, to big things like adultery and murder. Even poverty is born of sin. It is not always the sin of the person who suffers it. It may be crooked corporations or politicians. (Some poverty can be caused by weather, but that would be the exception not the rule.) I used to believe what the world would have us believe, that poverty is from not having enough to go around, but then I studied and found that one small section of the earth is capable of producing enough food in a few short months to feed the world many times over, and I learned so much more about reality. It”s not resources, it’s the unequal distribution, which is…
sin. Corporations shut down farms world wide and cause people to buy only from them, which causes shortages etc. Sin. But even consider illness and accidents. The proper distribution of resources would heal a lot of illness. In the event of accident/weather problems, even those could be greatly treated. Sin=suffering. Maybe not the sinner’s. Sometimes but not always. It is true what they say that sin is unhappiness. It’s just a rather egocentric interpretation to think that OUR sin equals OUR direct unhappiness. It’s much more complex than that. Anyway,to purify a population, you would need to eradicate all sin in every form. Probably the only way to effectively do this would be to have each person suffer the effects from every type of sin in all it’s various forms. One would also need to be exposed to love and benefit and perform sacrifices. All good things and all bad things and all the ripple effects they cause. One life wouldn’t be enough. It would take an entire population of individuals and every possible learning experience. You would need the entire human experience from every angle. So my borg consciousness theory would work here. Multiple lives might work as well so long as each person had enough lives to experience really pretty much everything. But that’s a lot of lives. If each person did experience all this, they would eventually evolve into a being who has lost all appetite for selfishness and whose every action is about love. In other words, God. The collection of beings would constitute Utopia. In other words, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. And then what? What would be left but to help other beings achieve this state? In other words, we become Gods whose purpose is to “parent” other beings. And that does fit the LDS model.
In my thoughts there is very little room for hell (as taught) or permanent judgement of any type. It defies all that I know to be true from a parenting perspective. It defies everything I feel in my core. I cannot believe a father would create billions of children to throw so very many away. It’s like he gives them life just to literally throw them in the garbage. To be limited from progression is hell. I don’t think that is anyone’s purpose.
I can and do believe in temporary hells. I believe when our eyes are opened to the things we have done we suffer through hell. I think we pay by truly understanding, not just hearing of or seeing the effects of our actions, but
experiencingthe full effects of our actions as if in the first hand. In this way, each and every one of us must suffer through hell. I am not sure where the atonement comes in, but I have to think the only way we could really learn would be to really experience it and understand it from a “victim” perspective. I also think sin is like potential energy in it’s effects, not actual consequences. For example, one may have an adulterous affair and maybe no one else ever found out so there is no “pain effect’ to others. While another may have an adulterous affair and it causes maximum devastation. Let’s say a man contracts AIDS and brings it home to his nursing wife. Not only the baby and wife and he all die a very painful long death but the whole community finds out and ostracizes them and the other woman’s family is also similarly destroyed. The sin is the same for each person, but what they pay wouldn’t be unless the sin was judged on potential consequences instead of actual consequences. And it is true that as they teach us, we can choose our actions but we cannot choose the consequences. Even if we fool ourselves into thinking we can. So in my mind, hell cannot be a permanent state. If anything we probably pay our hells here. In my mind, permanent judgement just cannot be. It must be that even the people who commit the worst possible sins will pay for them and then learn from them and eventually grow. I am not convinced of my borg theory nor the multiple life scenario, but I do know the “one blind shot and you’re out” idea cannot possibly be. I just can’t buy it.
So I checked out NOM, did some postings and even went to a BBQ. I can make some general judgement but it comes with the disclaimer that I am speaking in generalities and there are lots of variations within each. Not all NOMs are one way or the other and not all at StayLDS are, remember as in the church there are nuances, there are here too and anywhere you find people. Also I did a very small “sampling” so my interpretations may not be completely accurate. The NOM group seems to be more about the breaking away part, the venting and the questioning. Maybe they are more of the Fowlers’ stage 4. Many are outright rebellious for rebellious sake, and many are even anti and no real desire to “come back” or really even move forward. Many view mormonism as part of their past, maybe even shamefully. There is a place for all of that, but while some want to move past it, probably a good percentage are content to stay there is that state. The nice thing about the NOM group is they are HUGE. If you want to actually meet some real life people in your area, that is possible. In fact they have a voluntary registry that you can look up where all whoever answered the poll are located. Also, because they are a huge group, there are more brains to pick. I learned some good and interesting things in both places. Overall I would say if I had a question that needed answers, I would probably post to both and see what each comes back with. All the bits of knowledge are helpful- sometimes the more sources the better. But if I wanted support in making my beliefs work in the LDS context, I would post here. They are also a good support for those who just crashed into reality and in dealing with all of the anger and confusion that comes with that.
Here, it seems to be more focused on the repair part… the putting the pieces back together, moving into stage 5 of at least thinking in that general direction. This seems to fit my personal needs more, really. My focus at this point is to take apart the puzzle of each and every thing I was taught and believed, examine what I want to keep and which parts should be improved or replaced and build my own connection to truth. I don’t think NOM is worse or better but slightly different focus and may meet different needs at different times. Probably most “disaffected” mormons would find some things they need in both places.
I do have to appreciate everyone’s respect and non-judgement here. I think this is a place of healing. Sometimes healing hurts. Thanks to all who contribute.
I also think that this issue is one that is much easier said by our church leaders with their life experiences and prejudices. They are old guys who are in Mormon Utah. When they were dating, TR holding RMs who claimed to be virgins were, well everybody. From that standpoint, the dating pool is HUGE. It shouldn’t be hard at all to marry in the temple someone who seems to be all that. Now go outside of Utah. Or look only at people who are honest about where they are spiritually and their mistakes. Look at the secondary market. The pool just keeps getting smaller and smaller…
Unrealistic expectations! Thank you! It’s so funny… I was talking to someone about this just the other day. There are a number of people out there who have indeed spent quite some time on the meat market trying to find someone and couldn’t. Or maybe they had physical or mental handicaps or illnesses that inhibited their efforts. But there are a growing number of people, my brother being one, for whom it is not so simple. He has been out there looking… that is true. But he always wanted a beautiful super skinny (he likes the underweight looking ones-literally!) 19 year old girl. This worked when he was 19 so he had some girlfriends then. But as he aged, his taste never did. At 25 that is the only thing he would accept. And at 30. And at 35. Now at 40. The problem is that he could never “afford” what he wanted. What he brought to the table was not equal in any way. He developed poor hygiene habits that got even worse as his depression from night finding anyone spiraled downward. He started balding shortly after 20. He has very poor social skills. And he is broke. He spent lots of money on pursuing a PhD. He is brilliant! He built a website that physics instructors around the world reference in their teachings. But just short of finishing his PhD he burned out and moved in with my parents and got a job as a Walmart night stocker. He just gave up. On everything. Yet still will not accept anything less than a Barbie doll. So the question is– did he really look and not find anyone? Will he be given someone in the next life (as they say anyway)? Or was it his real choice not to marry? IDK. I don’t know anything anymore but it’s interesting to think about. I do think there is a huge trend in this church to breed significantly myopic people. Each person born into it is raised that they are so special and chosen. Out of the millions and millions of people who have ever walked this planet, they are of a handful to be saved for this dispensation, for this generation, for this country, and either chosen to be born into or convert to this church. Most at some point have been told they would be great church leaders or play some huge role in “bringing to pass the coming of Zion.” They are saviors of the world. Why shouldn’t God hand pick them the best looking, smartest, most successful spouse?
InquiringMind wrote:I think that the elephant in the room in this case is that most people are looking for someone who is much more attractive than they are, and I admit that I may fall into this category. But you can’t tell people to lower their expectations for an eternal companion, especially given that some people really do find what they are looking for and given the lofty promises the Church (or perhaps Church culture) makes to people who keep the commandments.
There are extensive studies about mate attraction and successful relationships and it’s all about what you can “afford.” Now that term does not necessarily mean monetarily. We all bring to the table both benefits and baggage, and in successful relationships are generally very closely matched in weight. Let’s take appearances, for example. On a 10 point scale, 10 being smoking hot and 1 having scales and claws, couples tend to be within 2 points of each other. There can be a 10 married to an 8, or a 2 married to a 4. You don’t typically see a 2 married to a 10. UNLESS there is another factor that balances out the scales. A 10 woman might marry a 4 man if he is very rich, or had a great social status, or great sense of humor etc. Unfortunately though, because appearances are disproportionately valuable in our society, the guy probably would need to have all 3 of those factors to be considered really. So if you are a 5 can you afford a 10? Yes, you can. But either you have to have some other really great attraction factors, or she will have at have some other major baggage issues… like she has to have the IQ of a jellyfish, or have some major personality disorder etc. And since some men find that attractive, that sometimes works! Reality is though that no matter what the church view leads us to believe, none of us can find the perfect person for us. None. Because it doesn’t exist and if it did we couldn’t afford it anyway.
I think there is another factor at work here that is not exclusive to the LDS. We are not taught how to pick people we are compatible with. In our U.S. culture and in the media we have two gate keepers. First of course in physical attraction. Then comes tastes, which is NOT compatibility, though most people think it is. For example, the first thing you ask yourself is is you feel physical attraction/chemistry. Yes? Ok do we like the same things? I like traveling, Italian food, dogs and the history channel. You do too? Whoo-hoo.. that’s all it takes, let’s get married! Just like the movies teach us! We can fall in love in 2 dates! BUT if you are LDS, now you add in a 3rd factor… are they active LDS? RMs? Have TRs? Really its a miracle any LDS people get married ever. But then…I have come to know that tastes, or likes and dislikes, don’t even really have to be the same for people to be compatible. The first two gate keepers are facades. Compatibility is much deeper than that, hard to quantify and rarely looked at… usually until two people are already married. Compatibility has much more to do with shared goals, personality types, mental & emotional health (which in most cases people hide from you until after its too late), maturity, views on sex roles and relationship values etc. Really in a perfect world we should skip past the first 2 gate keepers at least and check out the person right here at this level. But that is not ever going to happen. It’s pretty impossible. So LDS people pass the first 3 facades and jump to the LDS answer. Just receive a revelation! 1-We are attracted to each other. 2-We have things in common. 3-The other person claims to be worthy. (And in many cases it’s a lie anyway but that is a tangent…) 4-If we are compatible or not and this is meant to be, surely God will tell us?
InquiringMind wrote:… and women’s preference for a bad boy on a motorcycle over a NASA nerd is a matter of both genetic hard-wiring and culture.
It does go both ways. I hear women always say they want a nice guy. But then nice guys never win seems to be an accurate statement for the most part. It does seem that many women seem to fall for the bad guys even though they swear off the bad guys all the time. But I see the same with men. Guys also tend to want the paradox. They want a beautiful woman but one who is not superficial, doesn’t spend a lot of time or money on it, and doesn’t know how pretty she is. They want a thin woman but not one who diets. They want a women who doesn’t play games but then again they don’t like the warts of the truth. They want a woman who could control herself perfectly for 20 or 30 or so years being a true virgin, but who doesn’t have sex hangups after marriage and who has a high enough sex drive to fill his needs afterwards. And If you are talking about the “older” single crowd or second timers… they want a woman who will be valiant in her calling as wife and mother, but shy away from women who have spent the last few years doing exactly that. The guy may have kids, but they don’t want the woman to have any while the reality is that if she hasn’t had any she probably doesn’t want HIS. The list can go on and on. But it’s expectations. We come to the table with all our benefits and all our baggage. We see the other person’s. But we only want our benefits to be weighed and we want our baggage to be excused. It’s just the way most people are and it’s impossible to tell most of them to just get wake up and get real. Most people just aren’t realistic.
The only thing that rings true with me about McKonkie’s talk is that it does go with my line of thinking that it would not be good for the average person to think they had forever, because they wouldn’t do it. I know myself that I am a self motivated person. I am one of the few who can do a work-at-you-own-pace type of thing and most people can’t. I am built to be self-employed and most people are not. It’s not that they are worse or I am better. Just most people need deadlines. But it doesn’t work for me in any other sense. I have known bad people who have become “good” and the opposite. Where they would go would depend largely on when they were taken, over which they have no control– like On Own Now was saying. And I do not even think God can always control when we go especially when free agency is involved. As He Himself states that He cannot limit free agency because He would cease to be God. So someone who is killed in a drunk driving accident in a good phase of their lives goes to the celestial kingdom; even though if next year he would have fallen away and started giving into a sex addiction. A the guy in the next car was just having a really bad year and cursed god that morning; but, would have gone on to be one of the strongest best people ever who served everyone. He goes to a lower level. I guess what I am saying is where we are at any giving moment in our lives is not necessarily indicative of the entire path of our lives. So that is one problem.
The other problem I have is that there are those who die as children or those who were not introduced to the Gospel. They seriously were not exposed to the same “tests” as the rest of us. Heck, even the rest of us are not exposed to the same tests as each other. I have not ever struggled with same sex attraction, for example, so it is very easy for me to say I have lived that law perfectly. Why should I be judged as being righteous in that principle? I was never given that temptation to overcome. That doesn’t make me more righteous than someone who does struggle with it and even gives in. Conversely, there are many who know that God is there for them, and so it is easier for them to have a personal relationship with God than the state I am currently in. They have not been ostracized from the church because of rumors and other things. It is easier for them to go than it is for me. Are they really better than me? Anyway, I know what I would be told about all of this… that God knows what each of these people would have done with their lives had they lived long enough and they will be judged based on that. Excuse me here, but then what the hell are we really here for then? If God knew what we would all do, then all of the divine effort he put into creating this entire earth and all our bodies and all that we experienced was for what? A really big exercise in redundancy? So He knew but we had to come to prove it only to ourselves? I can’t think that we as spirit children would have sat there at God’s feet while He told us of our fates we would have said, “Nuh-uh God! We don’t believe you! We will prove it to you!”
If God knew what we would do He would not have needed to waste so much divine energy just to prove His point. If He did not know what we would do, how can a child be judged for what they would have done? How would someone who never heard the Gospel be judged on what they would have done?
And to clarify a point above, since we are all given wildly different tests, the only way a jugement would be fair is if we were ALL judged based on what we would have done if we had been given all other tests. The only way I could be judged for example and receive the blessings of not having a gay relationship is if I would have been judged based on what I would have done if I had been given the test of that attraction. And then it all comes back to the same argument of judging people without a fair test and it just doesn’t seem to hold water.
*as an aside, I am in no way condemning gay people. I am just using this as an example since the church has a very clear stance on this issue. I really don’t know what to think about it at this point, just as I do not know what to think about so many other things I was always taught anymore.
Also, the concept of time as we are taught defies logical final judgement. They say that time does not exist to God; that it is only an illusion created by the finite capacity of the mortal’s mind. If that is the case, then why would God use TIME, and a very short one besides, to damn us eternally if TIME does not exist for him? It just seems logical in that case that this “time for a test” is simply a mortal’s creation as well.
I just can’t fathom it. You are going to take a test. The instructor does not give instruction to more than 99% of the class. A few are handed a cheat sheet. Out of all of them, some are not going to have been taught to read. Some will not have pencils to write. Some only have basic easy answers to figure out while some must solve complex equations. Everyone gets a different time to do it all. Some 3 minutes, some several days. And when it’s all over whatever your final answers are determines your forever destiny. Oh well. Too bad to those who failed. You should have found a way, no matter what you were given, to come to the same answers. You all got the same shot. Right?
I just can’t accept that God, who is a perfect father, would be OK with only getting a very small fraction of his children back, who can actually walk with Him again. It seems to be that the “stuck forever” idea smacks of creating a slave race, not children.
I like On Own Now’s Point… maybe the Dogma of the “test” is not what it was ever meant to be about. That is the only conclusion I seem to be able to come to. But since it at least -WAS- a major teaching cornerstone in the doctrine, it is very hard to just say “They are wrong.” But I am pretty sure they are. I think I am OK with becoming a heretic. Scary times!
Yes, inquiring mind. You nailed it. It is so relieving to hear someone else say the exact same things I have been thinking. Thank you. I have even toyed with so many different ideas trying to find a way to get my head around it. For instance I thought of the concept of heavenly mothers. I thought of how things here are supposed to be an imperfect reflection of what is there. I thought of the proclamation to the family and how it states that mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of the children. I thought of how some claims are that God has many wives. I thought perhaps many of us have different mothers and some mothers intervene more for children then others. I thought maybe it’s my heavenly mother who is not being there for me. Crazy? Maybe. (I don’t really believe this– it was just a thought I was toying with.) It’s just there are such cavernous differences between people’s lives and the ways at which people’s prayers seem to be answered. There really does seem to be favorites! And it is not based on righteousness! Some of the most blessed are really bad people. (They don’t always seem to know that though but that’s another story!) I acknowledge these theories to be maybe silly. But so very much of our faith that we have been taught for so long is centralized around this; in fact, I think 90% of what it talked about in church is about a personal god who loves and and intervenes for us. How can we just walk away from that?
And it’s not that I lost faith. I believed, and believed and believed even when all “proof” pointed to the opposite. I believed as as I was sentenced to burn that I would be saved. I believed as I was tied to the stake. I believed as the fire was lit. I believed as the flames licked my toes. But now I am enveloped and all I see now are flames. How can I yet believe?
Fox Mulder had a poster in his office that said “I want to believe.” In these last few years, this has become my mantra.
Thanks for listening.
Heber13 wrote:RDS – As you evaluate your life, do you see certain areas you can work on one at a time? I wonder if you have appropriate relationships (family, church, kids, friends) that you can develop that can help you. We certainly can try to support from our posts, but real life face-to-face can be really important.
Just a thought.
Thanks for the thought. I agree with all you said. They are all very good coping mechanisms. But sadly some of those areas have been compromised for me in recent years; and, as far as support system- you guys are it!
I am married to a man with Borderline Personality Disorder with strong Narcissistic Personality Disorder tendencies. (They usually go together to some degree anyway.) It is one of the most difficult personality disorders that exist and many therapists won’t even treat them. Anyway, the first thing BPDs do is split you off from anything and everyone not on their “approved list” and they approve of almost no one. So family, friends, hobbies, time for myself… all gone. My family I didn’t have a supportive relationship with anyway for the most part. I did have friends, but after I disappeared into the highest room of the tallest tower they moved away. It’s pretty impossible to make new ones in the current situation I am in… especially after having been now ostracized from the Mormon community. My husband would be my only support system except when the problem is related to him, his disorder, the consequences from his actions OR anything not on the approved list: There is no one to go to. Also as far as spiritual things he cannot process anything that I think or feel, and anything I say that is not orthodox is completely unacceptable. (Even though he can openly curse God. That’s OK!) So in short– no support system. Just you! I am very glad I found this forum. While it is no substitute for live interaction, it really is helping me sort out my feelings and beliefs.
Goals- I am always one for continuing to grow in all areas. I feel like anyone who quits growing is missing the point! So yes, at any given time I am generally working on something. For instance, I taught myself Brazilian Portuguese in the last couple of years. That makes me happy. However, I am sad I allowed myself to be so limited in recent years with other goals I had for fear of destructive temper tantrums. For example, I always exercised my whole life. But in recent years that was on the “not approved” list so I sadly quit. I in fact was not even in charge of what I would eat, or how much, or when. Now that I am semi-separated from my husband I have set new goals and renewed old ones so that I am getting back to that. Yay!
You brought up an excellent reminder of encouragement that I do need to get back to these things, so thanks for thinking of me.
I can relate to you on many levels! I also grew up in the military (Air force) and lived in a lot of different places and subcultures. I spent most of my adult life in the East Valley of Arizona which is heavily LDS compared to most states, but nothing like Utah… it is very real world! My different experiences led me to have a much more open mind than most.
I moved to Utah in 2006 and it was a terrible culture shock! Utah does everything their own way- almost as if they are their own little country. The hardest part is the social club. It doesn’t feel like a church here. It’s just an elite club whose memebers spend the whole time trying to figure out who is better than who by outward appearances. I am too much of a rebel to play the appearance game and one of my core values has always been to be as authentic as possible. I figured people will either love me or not but at least they will know who I am and when people love me, it’s real. That doesn’t fly very well in Utah. Needless to say I don’t get invited to many birthday parties.
DISCLAIMER— I have met several good people in Utah and I will defend that not ALL Utahans are like that. But unfortunately my experience has seem to be it is most.
I don’t fit with the complete Jack Mormons either, or the Nons. I had a terrible time dating after my divorce because so many guys just wanted a women who would just play the game and I won’t. (Even though they all said “I want a woman who doesn’t play games. Such irony. They expect a woman to play games with everyone else, just not them!) So the Jacks loved me but I didn’t want that. If I had known there were actually so many more people out there like me and where to look I think things would have been so much different! I still don’t know any actual PEOPLE with whom I fit, but at least I have the virtual friends here.
Also, I have a bunch of kids with my first husband who are mostly all older now. My 2nd and I wanted to have 2 kids of our own. That’s when the miscarriages started. It was so very heartbreaking. Really, my heart goes out to you. None of the members around here know what I went through, but I shutter to think what they would say if they did. I was already ostracized from the club by that point because of rumors flying around about my husband which no one ever even showed up to ask me if any were true or what was going on or if I was OK. Instead it was as if my entire property from the sidewalk up was infected with the plague. In fact, two of my 12 year daughter’s friends (from two different families) told her they were not allowed to hang out with her anymore. They still sneak when they can but it is against their parents’ wishes. And get this- one of the girls is the daughter of the Relief Society President. How is that for fellow shipping?
Anyway, I know where you are coming from. Don’t give up. You are not alone.
I have thought of that as a possibility. Don’t like it- but the universe doesn’t care what people I like huh? I have generally thought it was silly to believe God would use His divine energy to help people find car keys or bend the laws of physics to help people get to work on time. My eyes had been open to such an extreme amount of human suffering throughout the world and time that it seems so egocentric to think otherwise. But I did want to believe that the really big stuff– the stuff that to some large extent forces a person to survive or die spiritually– that he would care and would do something. Yet though, the perspective that I have gained about human suffering continues to grow and while I thought I understood, I was perhaps still being quite egocentric. My suffering pales in regards to really most of the human race, not only a select small population as I guess I thought when I saw through myopic eyes. I see now that entire nations suffer and live lives of nothing but pain. Who am I that I should be so favored? It may be that God does indeed not care. IDK.
I am trying to find the middle path here that works for me. I am not ok with thinking he (or they) does not care at all, but evidence suggests he is certainly not there for us to the degree than most LDS Americans were taught. There are many good thoughts from very smart people on this board that I am considering to find what I believe now. Workin’ on it. Thanks for your input.
It is a very interesting line of thinking. I do think though really that all mortals will always remain in the cave and the only way we see the truth is when we die and have true knowledge of all things. Our mortality weighs us down so much. I still choose to believe that this is an eventuality for us all one day. But let us use that the cave is indeed orthodox views and that I was forced from the cave and into the “light.” There are things I see here I never wanted to see and some of me so wishes I could go back into the safety of the cave and what I thought I knew. So much here terrifies me. But can I go back? I don’t think so. I don’t think there is any way to go back- at least not to everything- not the way it was. Just as we can visit our childhood home as an adult, we can never go back to being a kid again. We can never see the world like we did when you were 10. So yes, I am mad at life to some degree for dragging me out of the reality I thought I knew.
Do the cave dwellers get mad at me and reject me because I now see different things? Yep. Most. (If I tell them.) But from an evolutionary perspective, the save dwellers hold onto what they know because it works for them. That is how they survive. And generation after generation for the most part, it works. I, on the other hand, am unsure, scared and not sure how to survive now. Does this make me more highly evolved, or less? Does it make me more like a mutant in an animal population that is actually more likely to be picked off by natural selection? Less ability to reproduce with the general population? Like a white butterfly amongst the gray that hide in the bark of a tree; more likely to get eaten? It may not so evolutionarily advantageous to be in this side of light. I am alone now– having lost much of the connection with my sub-culture, my family, my friends and even my husband. Alone is not so good for survival. (Especially here in Utah where Mormon culture dominates.) While I am forming some support with the “phantoms in the machine” it is still quite an unreal, intangible connection.
IDK. I do not “look down” on the cave dwellers at all. In fact, I am not sure my reality is any more real than theirs- just different. Perhaps my reality is still greatly obscured, and perhaps the things I see now as truth are no more truth than the shadows I thought to be truth before. In fact, is it not true that we believe things we see to be solid when in fact they are not? Just tiny masses of energy circling energy and nothing actually touches anything? Perhaps even this reality is not reality at all and still another version of shadows. I think that even though I have discovered there is more beyond the cave, I acknowledge that some of the knowledge I had before may not have all been false, and yet has been lost to me as my eyes have changed and I can no longer process some waves on the light spectrum. I also now know that my brain and eyes are not always to be trusted. If they misled me once, and my reality was not real before, then why would I think that they would be any more correct now? Therefore I must be wary that any truth I now learn will likely be replaced by another.
I agree with Brown’s thought. Perhaps we are not more enlightened, just differently enlightened. Maybe it’s not better or worse. Just different.
Anyway, hope it doesn’t all sound like ramblings. I appreciate the perspective and food for thought. It is an insightful step which hopefully leads to other steps, one direction or the other, and a fun exercise in reality perception, whatever we apply it to.
