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  • in reply to: Venting-Freedom of Speech in Sacrament #159915
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    I just wanted to add for SilentDawning-that really sucks. I know how painful it can be when things you work so hard for don’t pan out. It is much like a death. When my business crashed, I it felt almost (but not quite) as if one of my children had died.

    I recognize no one will solve my problems. Of course it would be great if a white knight would come to my rescue but I know that is not realistic. But I am finding that talking is helping my state of mind anyway. At least I know I am not alone with much of what I think and feel. In a climate where non questioning conformity is the only acceptable way, it can lead to such feelings of isolation. Thanks to all for that.

    If anyone is much more curious- there is a reason I chose that name. She is a character from my all time favorite movie- before it was a cult classic. I identify deeply with her. The only real difference is I am not so shy. ;)

    in reply to: Garments #159645
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    hawkgrrrl wrote:

    My conclusion was that they are not edible or at least not delicious to fish.


    Lol! Love it!

    in reply to: Venting-Freedom of Speech in Sacrament #159913
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    I appreciate all your thoughtful comments. I realize with what i said with many things you are flying blind. You do not know me much yet and there is so much I can’t say and that makes it hard. Thanks for trying though and caring.

    To answer the question, yes I have sought help inside and outside of the church. Every agency I could think of in fact. As far as professional counseling, I have been to only LDS counseling- I don’t mean just bishops etc but through LDS counseling services. Two different ones both told me I am incredibly mentally healthy and resilient especially considering what I have been through. Both told me they didn’t see the need to keep seeing me. I just needed to fix my situation and good luck with that. That’s why I sought help from different agencies not related to mental health outside the church meant to help people like me. Sadly the system is quite inadequate, especially for my unique situation, so I had to come up with a plan B. I am working on plan B its just going to take so long on my own that I worry about the damage in the interim. But it is what it is. I don’t see what the point is to try another counselor as there is nothing I can change in my thought process to make it happen any faster. Also, even though because of the subject of this forum I know I might come across as negative or unhappy I am quite the opposite. I don’t complain so much in real life! Lol! I am essentially a very happy and grateful person but caught in a very negative situation. So chemical treatment would be unecessary.

    I know I am being vague and I know it makes it hard for anyone who is trying to understand to do so, but I do have to be vague for a few reasons. First, its a very long an complicated thing to explain. Its alot of negativity to go into for no good reason. It wont fix anything. Also, I don’t really need advice on what to do with it as I already know the only things I can do and everything I have tried so far and what doesn’t work and why. However, the biggest reason I can’t say anything is because since it is a public forum if the things I write are read by the wrong person it could be very bad for me.

    Basically unless god were to throw me a lifeboat at this point I will just have to keep swimming to shore which will take me a few years. I am working on it. I just mourn the losses i am suffering along the way. Time does not seem to matter to God as he so plainly states so often so He seems to be OK with letting me stay here in this mess amidst so much destruction. I just hate it because time DOES matter to me and in fact the next few years are completely critical because we only have such a short time with our kids and what happens in their childhood DOES matter. Anyway that’s enough of stressing you guys out with riddles! ;)

    I am here on this board not to fix my situation because it would not be realistic, but to help reconcile my feelings about where I stand with my issues with the church. To that end you all have been very helpful. Thanks to all for listening and caring. :)

    in reply to: Garments #159634
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    To support InquiringMind here… I distinctly remember when I was a teenager in Sunday school many lessons on garments. One story I was told was about a guy who was in a fire who was horribly burned everywhere except the garments were. (Probably an evolved urban legend based on the Mariott story. Still taught as gospel nonetheless.) One about a man being shot without a scratch. Another who fell into the sea and sharks ate his entire body except for where the garments were. I thought at the time that that didn’t make sense. First, that would mean that no active Mormon should have ever died from 95% of the accidents that can kill people, also murder. Even the profit Joseph himself would not have been shot to death. But then I also felt guilty because I must not have enough faith and I promptly swept the idea to the back of my mind and tried to not think about it. Point is though it was a very prominant teaching being circulated in our church, at least in the 80s and early 90s.

    I went through the temple for the first time in 1992. I do SWEAR that during the endowment I was told that they were intended to be a protection both spiritually AND physically. Again, I felt uncomfortable but tried to live in denial. Since then even five years later in other sessions I thought that perhaps they had dropped that wording from the ceremony since I don’t recall hearing it again. But then again I thought maybe I was crazy and that I didn’t really hear it the first time- that I was just superimposing ideas I had been taught before in church as that moment. Does anyone know? Was that ever the wording? Did they drop it? Or am I nuts?? Don’t worry about offending me. I am OK with being nuts. :)

    in reply to: Modesty, etc. #157990
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Lol. I have a shirt I got recently that was my most favorite shirt. It is not a tank top but it has no sleeves. The fabric is at least 3 inches thick across the top of my shoulder. In the real world it would be considered very modest. I wore it not thinking anything of it. The other day my husband took it from me and told me I can’t wear it any more because “It’s too porno.” His words. I thought he was smoking crack. I just read through this post and realized…. he was freaking serious! WTH!

    I don’t think women should walk around with their cleavage all out or shorts that show cheek when they bend over. But shoulders? Come on. Since when are shoulders a private part? It’s 100 degrees outside. I do think the LDS version of modesty can go a bit too far.

    in reply to: Garments #159628
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    So great to be able to pick the brains of people with so much more knowledge than me!

    in reply to: I miss believing in God like I used to #159596
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    InquiringMind wrote:

    We know that there are some types of prayers that God NEVER answers. Here are a few:

    1) God never answers the prayers of amputees to have their lost limbs re-grown.

    2) God never answers prayers for world peace.

    3) God never answers the prayers of hopelessly infertile couples to have a child of their own.

    It’s so funny. I thought of some of these exact examples as well as the gay to straight one. I even brought the amputees one up with someone once. One could also add a bunch of others such as he does not bring people back from the dead. Seems obvious but the concept is the same.

    InquiringMind wrote:

    I’m not sure that I want to believe in that kind of God, so I continue to puzzle things out.

    Yes, yes. :( If God does indeed not answer prayers for the most part, then why are we commanded to pray so much about all things? They don’t say we should just pray for spiritual growth, for thankfulness and for knowledge on how to serve others. It is ALL things. If it is more or less a fallacy, why is it so very prevalent in our church’s teachings? Why do priesthood leaders who should know better than us all allow the teachings in church on this to be so out of control? Is the first presidency so allowed to look at the world through rose colored glasses that they don’t know this? Is that what it is? I don’t know- just wondering. Just by a natural weeding process I think this might possibly be it. People assume generally that is something worked a certain way for them it will work for others. Men in the first presidency tend to have the most commonly sought blessings. They may have started with hardships of one degree or another but they don’t seem to continue. For example- divorced men get weeded out. Can’t be a bishop without a wife. Unhealthy men tend to get weeded out. You have to be reasonably healthy, at least in the beginning, to have the strength to publicly serve long enough to get “promoted” to the first presidency. You have to live long enough too. You probably won’t have any major addictions or same sex attraction or you wouldn’t make it that far. These days leaders of the church tend to be social, happy, successful businessmen with happy families. So their prayers tend to pan out. Could that be it?

    Years ago I realized a truth. No divine effort is ever wasted. God will never do anything for us that we can do ourselves. This was a very valuable lesson for me. It is as it should be. That’s good parenting! But I believed for years and wanted to continue to believe that when it came down to things outside ourselves, things we are powerless to control, that he would be there to step in and help us if we just prayed hard enough. I am struggling much with the father whom I thought I knew. After all he is omnipotent right? How many times does it say that in the scriptures? And how often to we hear “with God nothing is impossible?” I am pondering the concept of the weeping God who has his hands tied so very much. It makes sense. But it really does go against everything I was ever taught about his omnipotence and I really don’t want to think of God as a father who just throws us all down here and leaves us pretty much alone.

    I know people will bare testimony after testimony about instances when their prayers were answered. I have too at times. I think of times my prayers seemed to be answered, as I do have many blessings. However, some of the most big, most important, even eternally important ones have not. I wonder if so many people, including me, haven’t simply been taken in by the “fallacy of positive instances.” For those unfamiliar, the theory states that when we want to believe something badly enough, we will tend to forget instances when our beliefs were not backed up and only remember the ones that were. For example, that is why many people tend to believe in psychics who are really just people readers. The “psychic will say, “You will met a man with a black t-shirt. You will have eggs for breakfast. You will be late for work.” And when they are late for work, they suddenly remember the psychic said it would happen, and they conveniently forget about the black shirt and the eggs. I know that is a silly example but the concept is illustrated. What we pray for our wishes. Statistically, almost no one gets 100% of what they wish for. However, statistically most people will get some of what they wish for. This is true whether we pray or not. Some of our wishes will come true, even if small. Could it be that we who give credit for prayers granting our wishes are simply manifesting the fallacy of positive instances? For every LDS family I see that is greatly blessed with health and wealth and happiness I can point out a non Mormon or non christian or even atheist family who also has it. Prayer doesn’t seem to shift the balance, even though I still want it too. :(

    in reply to: Garments #159623
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    I love love love all your comments and advice. I am feeling so much more peace in my life after having found such smart, good people that I can talk to about these things that I have struggled with for so many years, always in silence since the cost of opening my mouth to anyone in the church is just too great. Sad but true. It’s kind of laughable really but when I was dating after my divorce I wrote a blog on dating the second time around in which I poked fun at the meat market. It was meant to be funny. I thought it was hilarious myself. (Yes I do laugh at my own jokes!) Anyway, some “well intentioned” ward member apparently found it and went running to the bishop and the bishop promptly called me down and chastised me because he said he thought I was being anti-family and anti-men. This is ridiculous as it was negative in no way about either, it was just a joke, and anyone who knows me knows I am VERY family centered and despite my bad experiences with men, I am a believer that there are very good and really great men out there. Whether or not I will ever have one is debatable, but the do exist. I believe! Anyway, point is if I got in trouble for THAT, I would be burned at the stake for addressing any of my real concerns with anyone in the church.

    Brian Johnston wrote:

    If you are interested enough in this, there are several good books that discuss their history, changes over time, and how our view of them developed to the present.

    Yes! Please… any more recommendations aside from the Buerger book? I will order one today. I also believe it was HSAD who mentioned she had done alot of research and she believes we use them in ways for which they were not originally intended. (forgive me if it wasn’t— I have been reading so much!) I would be interested in any references to this research.

    Brian Johnston wrote:

    I personally have a hard time saying they mean one thing, and only have a single purpose. That reduces too much of the complexity.

    Agreed. I over simplify.

    Brian Johnston wrote:

    I tend to doubt he intended women to wear them, or at least didn’t think much about that when he tested this concept initially.

    I am intrigued. What makes you say this?

    Brian Johnston wrote:


    This is a great example of the process of owning your religious beliefs! Go with what feels important or good, especially things that are uplifting and spiritual. Try it out and test it. Does it “bring forth good fruit?” Does it make your life better? I would call that “the spirit.” Set aside the things that trouble you. Don’t let them be a distraction from the good. If they don’t seem right, don’t do them.

    I love this. Thank you for the validation. I suppose the cafeteria thing will be very useful here. No one can do every thing perfect at all times. If I decide at some point to change this I can always go pick it up later right? I am totally embracing the cafeteria concept. Buffets are awesome that way. ‘Twill be my creed from this day forth! I need to cross stitch it and hang it on my wall. Oh wait, I don’t cross stitch. :)

    My sentiments are much with HSAD. I think one of the problems for many women is that we don’t psychological compartmentalize as well as men as a general rule. They say for woman our sex starts the moment we get up and continues all day long with every issue having nothing to do with sex. It has to do with household chores and kids and whether our husbands remembers special things. We don’t switch it on and off like most men do. How we feel about ourselves sexually is an all the time thing. If we are thinking every day all day long “I am fat and no one wants me” we don’t just flip the switch and become sexual at night. We shut down over all. That’s why a man who does more for a woman to show her she is loved and wanted tends to get more at night. (As a generality. There is always exceptions.) I also believe that is many times why men sometimes complain there is such a thing called a an anti-aphrodisiac. It’s called wedding cake. It’s because men tend to quit dating their wives when they get married. Again this is a generalization and in no way am I blaming men for all sexual problems between couples. It’s just an insight into the workings of an average female mind. For men it doesn’t work that way so much. Kind of the opposite in many ways. They do have an on/off switch which is really easy to trigger to on. In fact, sometimes, the harder his day was and the worse he feels sometimes the more he needs the sexual affirmation and release.

    And as women in this culture, we have an ingrained tendency to have much of our identity focused on our bodies. (Yes it is our culture- this is not a tendency seen across the board in all cultures. Maybe another reason this is more a problem for American women now that 100 years ago?) We are taught from the time we can talk that we should be so beautiful that woodland creatures flock to us when we sing. Is it so crazy to think that we find it unacceptable to add any more ugliness to our already naturally imperfect bodies that we struggle so much with accepting anyway? I will acknowledge here that yes, our society pressures men in this regard too, but it really isn’t the same pressure. How many men can you think of as characters on TV who are kinda homely and a bit fat, yet they are married to very pretty women who are way out of their league? And how many in the reverse? It’s just not the same level of pressure. And as HSAD mentioned… garments are not really considered very ugly for men. There is not a big jump from regular men’s underwear to garments. In fact, the prevailing style is boxer briefs which are pretty much identical to garments and I personally find smokin’ hot. But women’s garments look nothing like women’s underwear. Just sayin’,

    in reply to: I miss believing in God like I used to #159589
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Your voice echos very loudly here!

    The world becomes a scary and terrible place when he think we are alone here. Anything can and does happen. It is a hostile place, more hostile for some than others, and to think maybe we don’t have someone watching our backs… It’s nothing short of terrifying.

    Sometime ago I thought of the problem of conflicting prayers. For example, as you bring up, the weather. It was a day of a field trip when I was a kid in school and we could only go if it stopped raining. You know what a big deal field trips are! So many of my friends and I prayed the rain would stop. Of course it didn’t. But then I thought, for everyone of us who prays for the rain to stop, there is some happy farmer who needed it to come and prayed for it. And then I thought there are lots of people out there who prayed for it for other reasons. Who am I that God should deny them to please me? And then I thought that on any given day, there are probably 3,000 people praying for it to not rain. What if God listened to them? It would never rain. And on any given day there are probably 3,000 people praying for it to rain. What if God listened to them? So I came to the conclusion that weather is not a prayer God can answer. Not for individuals anyway. Recently I thought of the custody battles that I have been through with my ex and the ones my 2nd husband fought with his. Our situations are very complicated so I will keep it simple and use a generic example. A certain mom believes her ex husband is evil and thinks the kids will be destroyed by living with him. She fights for sole custody and prays a mother’s prayers over her children with desperation for God’s help to let the judge “see” and give the kids to her. But her ex husband has come to believe the same of her and thinks the kids are better off with him. So he prays and prays for God’s help for the exact same thing in his favor. Each party truly believes they are right. Who does God listen to? The more I thought about which prayers we pray will be conflicting with someone else’s, the more I thought it really is much more conflict than we imagined. You need a promotion at work or a job. So you pray. But neighbor Joe is also praying for that job.Certainly we can’t think he will grant it to us because we are so much more righteous than everyone else.

    Then I thought of money and health. If even 75% of those who prayed for money and paid tithing received it and even 75% who prayed for health received it then there should be hugely significant statistics between states. And consider depression. According to traditional mormon thinking, Utah should be the richest, most healthy, happiest state. So I looked at statistics. Here it is:

    Utah doesn’t even make the top 10 in terms of wealth.

    Utah is #7 as healthiest. Is this prayer? Or is it in part due to the natural consequence of the Utah’s tendency to avoid smoking and alcohol? Could be either.

    Utah is the second most depressed state in the nation, beating only Rhode Island by .1% Wow!

    So statistics don’t seem to suggest much in the favor of prayer.

    So I started to think if God doesn’t answer prayers that conflict with others, and if he doesn’t answer prayers to stop people who hurt us because it is their agency, and he doesn’t answer money prayers, and he doesn’t answer happiness prayers… which prayers exactly does he answer?? Why do the scriptures say to pray over EVERYTHING including the cattle of our field if he does not answer prayers regarding these things??

    I began to think more along the line of the clock maker theory of God. His hand is in all things because he created each and every thing. But he was ingenious enough to set it up so that it would run itself. In short, He built it, set is up and let it run. For the most part he does not intervene except when something occurs that requires a divine intervention because it will throw off his entire plan, as a clock maker might remove a foreign object or replace a lost spring. But it would be very self centered of me to think that whether I showed up to an appointment late because I was caught in traffic or not because I prayed could possible throw of his Eternal Plan.

    I want to believe in little daily miracles. I don’t want to think that He threw me down here and whatever happens happens. It’s a terrible scary isolating feeling. At the same time, I used to pray so hard over little things and big things alike. There was always such a huge feeling of stress involved as I tried to pray hard enough and wanted it so much that I could burst through the noise of this world and get God to hear me and help me. But really in most cases, and certainly in the biggest most important things I prayed for it was to no avail. It was a stress for nothing. I go through periods where I do not pray. I am scared to. Based on past experience He will not help me anyway and the crushing disappointment of the continued unanswered prayers is just too much. So honestly I feel less stressed when I don’t pray. But then I miss it. And I wonder why we are commanded to pray “in all things” not just to say thank you if it doesn’t matter and doesn’t change anything. idk. I am lost here too.

    in reply to: Recent convert struggling with testimony seeking support #157562
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Hope you are still reading the board. What you are experiencing is what they call in psychology cognitive dissonance, if you haven’t heard of it. Essentially it is when we are living two different value systems that conflict with each other and it causes us great anguish. In your case you are doing something against what you believe to be right, and it can tear you apart. Psychologically this is much too uncomfortable and we as people either deal with it by changing our behavior… or changing our beliefs.

    To survive this it may not be realistic to change your behavior at this time. I say this not to excuse but just a statement of human frailties- its a reality. In which case you will have to change your beliefs. Hopefully you won’t change your beliefs that the Gospel in true. I would urge you to consider to change your beliefs that your actions are making you inferior, unwanted by God etc. There is hope and you can make it back.

    The law of Chastity is a great law. A wonderful law that protects us from so much pain. I have often thought -and this is simple IMO- that the gravity of sin is in direct relation to how many people it has the potential of hurting. Notice I saw potential, not actual pain. This is because we cannot choose the consequence of our behaviors, only our behaviors. In one case, no one may ever know what we did in this life, and in another it may destroy multiple lives. But we don’t get to choose that really because we have little if any control once we commit the sin. Think about the law of chastity and the worst possible outcomes of pain in people’s lives. Illegitimate children, diseases passed to innocent spouses, the pain of finding the betrayal of a spouse, the list goes on and on. Also it can be very limiting. It also closes doors for us in our lives… the right future spouses might pass us by, the ability lost to walk the halls of the temple. It is such a grave sin because the consequences when things go wrong can be so very horrific.

    That being said, know that very few of us actually live our entire lives keeping that law perfectly, even among the ones who pretend to. Unfortunately, I have seen way way too much of the dark side of people, and even of Utah. Don’t get me wrong, there are MANY great and wonderful people here is UT and all over the world. But in many ways you might find Utah as I have… not all it’s cracked up to be. In fact I have a strong connection with Brazil and many members who have moved here from there thinking they would bask in the land of milk & honey of the church only to be devastated by reality and lose their testimonies. It is tragic. There is a sparkling clean facade that covers many dark houses- inside Utah and out, but more in Utah than many Utahns will accept. Do not take this as a statement that this makes the Gospel less true or another reason to turn from the light. Instead I mean that you have no reason to judge yourself so harshly that you turn away. You can do this. You are not inferior or weaker. ] Even if your path takes time to correct, you can do this. Don’t expect yourself to climb the entire mountain in a day.

    I would love to talk with you more. I live in Bountiful and have *more insight than I would like* with your experience. If you would like to get together sometime and dump on me please send me a private message and I will give you my number. Good luck! :)

    in reply to: Guardian Angels? #159547
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    afterall wrote:

    Do you believe in being tested and that since you are so strong spiritually, your tests will have to be stronger? Someone shared that with me once.

    I have heard alot of that in the church. I have also heard much that Satan tries most to get the ones who have the most promise. idk. I think of the tiny babies born into families who abuse and torture them from birth, and the natural defense in the developing psyche is to also grow up to become monsters who also abuse and torture. I now question how much “free agency” they really had, and if that is the case that they had the greatest tests then they must have been the strongest of us all… and yet they failed. Yet God sent them to those families knowing they probably would fail. idk. I really wonder about that sometimes. Did they ever really have a chance? I think I have a gift of empathy to the point that it is sometimes a curse. OK lots of times a curse.

    I think some of us just tell ourselves that because it helps us feel better. If we look around and see others who are really not tested so much we want to say “well Satan doesn’t want them so much.” Maybe it is true. If it helps you cope then definitely hold onto it and run with it. Hope gets us a long, long way.

    I guess there has been a bit of “evidence” in my life to suggest that it might be true. Both of my husbands as I mentioned had crazy good guardians or something. Yet reality is neither have been any where near as strong as me. Maybe they couldn’t handle what I have. I don’t mean to brag but they broke under much less. Also, there was a point when I was living in a very wealthy neighborhood of brand new houses. (I lived in student housing nearby but the ward was predominantly rich.) I had a hard time going to Homemaking sometimes because I had to listen to stories like “I really wanted the $50k cupboards for my kitchen but my husband just had to invest in the lot next to ours so I had to get the $20k cupboards. Oh poor me I just can’t believe it.” (She really was on the verge of tears!) Another woman wanted to divorce her husband because he bought her a diamond necklace instead of the tennis bracelet she really wanted. OMG I could have just lost my lunch all over the floor. The kicker was a woman who stood up in SM and talked about how a pipe broke under her house and that really made her question God. WTH???? Really??? I did learn something from her though. I defined in my mind that there is a HUGE difference between problems and trials. Problems are the regular headaches of life. Most everyone has them. A flat tire, a broken pipe, a bout of the flu that takes a family down for several weeks. A trial though; changes your relationship with God. You are forced to evaluate your beliefs and your moral code. During the process, what you decide and you believe determines whether you are closer to God, or further, but a change one direction or the other takes place. I suppose to some people broken pipes might do that, although its hard for me to fathom. I guess that is off the subject, but if those women had any idea what real problems were like, I shudder to think what it would do to them. And I just kept thinking… Really??? Really??? What I wouldn’t give to let a tennis bracelet be my biggest problem in life! Or even a broken pipe!

    Then again I think most people argue that the lack of strength was not what led to being tested less, but that the tests led to the strength. However, as I said though- sometimes people are indeed tested beyond their limits. Sometimes they break. :(

    in reply to: Guardian Angels? #159545
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Roy wrote:

    Although I’m not sure how envisioning your guardian angel as a fat and lazy couch potato that “mails it in” just before the end of the month….

    Lol that’s an awesome visual! 😆 I really do appreciate your time in looking up all that. Very interesting reading and exactly what I was after. :) idk what I think yet but it is something to ponder.

    in reply to: Promises Broken #149904
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    No worries. You can probably never push me too hard- I have really tough skin- and probably you would never push me as hard as I push myself, I promise. I have valued everyone’s input very much. It’s about time I can openly express my ideas and get real feedback from people who are in the same boat. Not sure what to do with everything yet, but I am processing. And yes, I do need to just freaking stand up and do something- again. :D

    in reply to: There and back again #140166
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Wow. I know this is somewhat of an older thread. But wow I can say- I get you. On many levels. Several experiences I have had are very similar, some I mentioned in my post and some I did not. I am so sorry for your loss.

    in reply to: Promises Broken #149899
    RagDollSallyUT
    Participant

    Quote:

    Quit “watching in silence as each one receives the stabbing thrusts of the knife…” Quit sitting there watching it happen and waiting for God or angels to come rescue them. You are the angel God sent to rescue them.

    Remember when I said there were no easy answers and even if I wanted to I couldn’t explain what was no going on now? This is not having to do with my previous marriage– rather my current circumstance that I did not go into. Yes, in an ideal world if I had all the tools I needed, I would just stand up and grab my kids by the hand and walk out of this place and never look back. But I am in a place that I do not know how to extricate myself from. Every time I try to escape I only make things worse and more resources to escape are removed from me. This is one of those moments that so many people have a “Why don’t you just…” as if it were that simple. If it were that simple, don’t you think I would have just done it already? I really appreciate your input, and I do appreciate a candid “quit whining and get to work” – I am contemplating that- but I am in a place where I really don’t know how to do that with the tools I have at the moment. I think there comes times in everyone’s life when we all experience a bit of this– the realization that we were never meant to be islands and we really do sometimes need help. I just don’t know where to get it right now. Even if I could tell you in this open forum where I am and what is happening, you probably won’t believe me. :( There are legal and other very real issues that are preventing me from moving on, keeping me here. It’s much more complicated than you can know, believe me.

    Quote:

    Please stop talking about your older children as lost causes — the ones that grew up partly in a rough neighborhood after one of your downturns. BTW, just as many privileged kids in rich neighborhoods get into drugs and trouble. There’s no shortage of it among any socio-economic class. Affluent neighborhoods are just better at hiding it while pasting on a smiley face.

    Yes, I know this. I lived in some very rich neighborhoods ad saw the cover ups first hand. I see it here is Bountiful all the time. But the situation I am in now has exposed my kids to such carnage on a regular basis that no one should have to see, and developing minds and growing spirits do not generally process well. It goes far beyond any simple lack of affluence. I am referring to a much deeper insidious problem that is eating at the core of our family. It is one I cannot address here. There is a chance for survival yes, like sea turtles. Some might make it. Maybe one. Maybe none. Maybe I will get lucky and the rest will. But I wouldn’t be a good mother if I didn’t want to maximize their chances and try to fight off as many predators as possible.

    Quote:

    Maybe I am reading you wrong and reacting the wrong way, but this strikes very close to life experience that someone close to me has. Her mother constantly refers to her as the proof of being a bad mother and a failure. Her mother mutters on and on about not knowing where she went wrong to have such lost children who don’t believe enough. The lady was so over-the-top zealous raising her kids, that almost none of them now want anything to do with the church. It’s a permanent wedge between them. They desperately want a connection with their mother, but she is so lost in self-pity it’s like she no longer exists in the same reality. And the worst part? These kids of hers are grown adults, have their own beautiful families, with good marriages and take good care of her grandchildren. But they are lost! And they will be sorry some day when they realize the Truth of the Gospel, and the truth of the choices they made … blah blah blah.

    Oh believe me, if my two sons would just be decent tax paying citizens who have families and love them. I would be thrilled with that.

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    Yes. You do know how to fix things or make them better. You can figure it out. Don’t be the obstacle.

    Do I? Wish I did. I am trying to set the best example I can, but my experience taught me that this is not enough. I try to counsel them the best I can with my albeit unprofessional but hopefully somewhat insightful experiences and beliefs. I try to minimize blows whenever I can, shield what I can, heal where I can. But reality is we are in a very unhealthy situation that is not good for them, nor me. I have tried to escape many times only to come back injured with my tail between my legs and as I said, even less resources than before. I feel I have no other option but to wait until another door opens, and hopefully that will be the right one that leads to freedom. But i run in circles plunging myself further into desperation as no door appears, and the struggling with the confusion that I thought that it was God’s job to open the doors after we have done everything else we can do. I am doing everything I know how to do right now at this moment. But these moments are starting to stretch into years and nothing seems to be changing. It really is not as simple as it seems. If it was I would have fixed it already.

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