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Quote:
by Heber13
It makes me think of Wendy Ulrich’s speech that I’ve always liked. In it she says that after going through a stage of honeymoon phase, power struggle, and withdrawal phases…we may be ready to try to reconnect because…
We come to accept our spouse or our parents or the Church, and we come to accept ourselves. We allow God to run the universe, and we become more content to let go of things we cannot change. A deeper, more mature love begins to emerge, with fewer power struggles and less disengagement. We do not need to see all the answers, and we do not need perfection by our standards in order to not be embarrassed or ashamed of our Church, our partner, or our God. We reinvest in the relationship, not because we have decided to risk yet one more time that we will not get hurt only to have the rug pulled out yet one more time from under us, but because we have learned that hurt can be survived, that this is a risk worth taking, and that it does not mean we cannot be happy or that we are irrational suckers or that we are doomed to failure because we take another chance on trust or because we fail or are failed again. We see ourselves and our partner more realistically, and we do not run from either vision. We recognize that we can be hurt by being betrayed or we can be hurt by not trusting, but we don’t get the no-hurt choice because there isn’t one, at least not until we simply choose not to read betrayal into every ecclesiastical failure, or abandonment into every unanswered prayer.
When you realize you don’t have a choice that includes the “no pain” scenario…then the best of two imperfect scenarios becomes your best choice, and can be worthwhile rather than waiting endlessly for the perfect scenario. Then, you can stay on your terms…and own your religion.
This was very mind blowing for me to read. It really struck me how my relationship with the church can definitely be compared to my relationships with other people and myself. For the last few years I have been working on overcoming some of my own personal baggage that has caused lots of problems in my life. As I have become healthier I have found myself becoming more accepting of other people and a bit more accepting of myself. It will be interesting to apply the same techniques I have used with myself and others towards the church. I really was struck by this quote, “We reinvest in the relationship, not because we have decided to risk yet one more time that we will not get hurt only to have the rug pulled out yet one more time from under us, but because we have learned that hurt can be survived, that this is a risk worth taking” Even though there has been some extreme hurt there has been a lot of good in my relationship with the church. I will definitely read the rest of Wendy’s speech.
As much as I have come a long ways from the time I first introduced myself on this site there is still a long journey ahead of me. It has not been that long since the start of my faith crisis. I still am struggling with wanting answers. Part of me is really hoping I can determine what is exactly true and false (which is part of stage 4 if I understand that correctly). This isn’t fully a stage thing either, it really runs in my personality to understand things fully and to have things perfect/right. So not only am I going through a stage that is seeking to correct my disillusionment, but my personality is screaming at me to figure it out so the dissonance goes away. Sigh. This doesn’t help at all with figuring out how to participate. Well at least I have the rest of my life to figure it out. I can look at it as a fun/obnoxious puzzle
:think: I read this a couple of days ago and it was an absolute comfort. I need to print it out and read it regularly. Thank you everyone for your ideas. Everyone is right about looking at church as a way to serve rather than be edified. I guess part of me is still sad that I don’t find church as uplifting as I once did. I also know that it is unwise to express doubts. I just get tired of feeling like if I can’t say, “I know god lives” then I can’t say anything at all. I want to be able to speak and feel like I’m being honest without being too open about my situation. Perhaps I am wanting something that won’t happen. I guess I am still unsure of how to serve in some callings. For example if I were called to serve in the primary how do I handle some of the lessons I feel may be disingenuous? I also understand wayferer’s comment about
Quote:When in a temple of a given tradition, we speak in the language of that tradition, and don’t bring forward things that don’t fit — it’s just respectful that way.
I am ok doing that. I guess there are some messages I feel are unhealthy. Is it wrong for me to offer another viewpoint? Sadly I almost think it would be easier to do callings around adults. All you need to do is direct discussion and you can easily get away with never saying your opinion.
embwbam wrote:The last 3 years though, I realized that I didn’t know if I could trust spiritual evidence. I began to think that following the steps to re-gain a testimony might just be an exercise in confirmation bias. If it’s possible that we induce our own spiritual experiences because we want them so badly, how could I ever regain a testimony? Maybe there’s a simple answer to that, but if there is, I haven’t found one in 3 years…
Well, in church I made a realization.
I really don’t think there’s any way the church is literally True. Like, no way. There’s way too much evidence that a lot of it is made up. That doesn’t mean it isn’t inspired at all, it just means that the TBM interpretation isn’t correct…
I feel like I’ve finally moved on. Like now, since I admit it’s not 100%, I can step back and figure out what *I* really believe. If mormonism isn’t 100%, I’m pretty sure nothing else is, so that means God isn’t as picky as I thought, and won’t blame me for honestly trying to figure things out. I can live by the things I think I should do, and get back to trying to improve myself instead of being stuck by this testimony thing.
I found myself nodding a lot to what you wrote in your post. I feel fairly comfortable where I am, but there is something that has been nagging at me and you happened to mention that thing in your post. How do you know if spiritual evidence is divine or conjured by yourself? I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how to distinguish between the divine and just an emotional experience? I wasn’t as careful with the reading of the many posts that followed because my eyes are getting tired so if I am asking a question that has already been answered I am sorry.
Cadence wrote:I try to avoid it. I like the thought of everyone not having to work at least one day a week.
I am with Cadence on this one and pretty much everyone else. I couldn’t help but laugh at seeing this topic when (today is Sunday) I spent an arm and a leg filling my car with gas for a trip
😆 no guilt here whatsoever.As long as you feel like it doesn’t take away from the day for you I wouldn’t worry. Just don’t voice that around TBMs
:shh: unless you want to rock the boat😈 InquiringMind wrote:You know what’s strange about this demythologizing process that is part of Fowler’s Stage 4? I can’t just say to myself, “The Church probably isn’t what it claims to be, so it’s all partially bunk and partially true, and that’s that, so now I’ll move on with my life.” No. When a certain worldview has dominated my life so powerfully and has come to influence the way I see the world in everything from astronomy to Chinese politics to the structure of DNA to supernatural claims to neurology to romantic attraction, I have to go through the lines of code of my mental programming ONE BY ONE, challenge my old beliefs, and replace them with new ones based on my own observations, my own feelings, and the available evidence. I have to ask myself what I believe about tea and coffee, about alcohol, about chastity, about doing whatever on Sunday, about Church history and doctrine, about who the Lamanites really are, about Joseph Smith who was married to Marinda Hyde who was married to Orson Hyde who was married to a couple other women and about what that means, about the structure and content of Church Sunday school manuals, about politics and the “Founding Fathers,” about the nature of God and an afterlife and if they even exist, about what it means to be a Hindu, about where the Qur’an came from, about the historicity of the Flood of Noah and the Garden of Eden, and about the laws of physics. I am shocked at how much being a Mormon has influenced the way I see the world in every way. Losing a literal belief in the religion is a complete mental and worldview overhaul. And it’s kind of….taking FOREVER. I am constantly running into situations where I recognize the dissonance between what I was taught (or came to believe) and what my new reality is. And I have to work through these situations one by one to reprogram myself.
That is all for now.
This is where I am almost word for word. It is completely exhausting to relearn almost EVERYTHING!!! I find it even more frustrating going through this process with where I am at in life. Right now I am at a complete transition in my life. I just graduated with my masters degree and I am looking for a job. I used to feel so sure about things. I used to feel like there was a plan and there was so much comfort in the idea that there was this heavenly father that was guiding me on this path. Now I feel like Lehi in the dream where he follows a person in a white rob and he gets lost in the dark before finding the tree. Right now I am in the dark playing Marco Polo with the person in the white robe. Right now in the dark I am wondering where in the hell this person went. I swear I was following a person and I was not hallucinating. Now after being in the dark for so long I am beginning to wonder if the person in the white robe even exists. It is a scary thought that I got myself lost in the dark for nothing.
turinturambar wrote:Yep. It took years to build, and might take years to rebuild. Stage 5 is so worth it, though.
It’s statements like this that are giving me faith/hope to keep on stumbling through the dark. I hope to make it to stage 5 and possibly just like Lehi’s dream taste of the fruit (which I compare to stage 5).
Welcome! I resonated with something you stated, Quote:I would set through the HP lessons on Sunday and 3 out of 4 times I would come home pissed off thinking the guys in the group had no idea about real life and their simple answers about prayer and reading the scriptures only made matters worse.
It was difficult for me (and sometimes still is) to sit in church listening to sugarcoated stories of life while I was suffering pretending nothing was wrong. I think Ray put it quite well when he said
Quote:Would you want them to see and experience what you’ve seen and experienced?
I am sorry you have had so many difficult experiences, and I am glad you are getting some help. I hope you will feel welcome and find peace and solace. I look forward to hearing from you.
Welcome Tacenda! It sounds like this will be a good place for you. I have found a lot of comfort here with the concerns I have with church history and doctrine. There are a lot of great people with a great outlook that I find very uplifting. I look forward to learning from you! Welcome nomdeplume! There were a lot of things you mentioned in your introduction that I found myself identifying with. Especially when you said, Quote:What shocked me the most was finding out about Joseph Smith and polyandry. It got to the point where if I saw an image of Joseph Smith, it would make me feel sick to my stomach. On my mission, we often taught that by his fruits we could tell if Joseph Smith was a real prophet. His fruit in our teaching was the BOM, however studying his whole life I have found that his fruits to me have become bitter and rotten.
I also realized that polygamy is still in practice today. Men can be seal to more than one wife when a spouse dies and women cannot. This makes me extremely uncomfortable because it just highlights the doctrinal inequality that exists in the church. Women must submit to the will of men and that has never felt right to me.
This was one thing I really struggled with. Why would God command something that was so secret and brought more harms (at least that is how I see it) than good? In time I have found a belief system I feel comfortable with. In fact I no longer feel the same feelings of anger, betrayal, confusion etc. I felt before. I hope you will find comfort here. Look forward to hearing more from you!
I really enjoyed your blog post wayfarer. I believe you are right in that truth is found everywhere as 2 Nephi 29: 10-13 states. I had an interesting thought on how many different groups of people seem to contain a piece of the puzzle of truth. In a way I think it is kind of neat that I may only be able to gain a piece of that puzzle and by loving others and being open to different view points I can continue to gather more pieces of that puzzle. I guess what I am saying is that if we all could understand that we all have pieces of truth it could unify humans in a very profound way. I am not sure I dictated my thought well, but I tried. I also liked this scripture from paul:
Quote:For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect (greek: complete, and by extension, ‘more accurate’) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Even though my faith transition has been painful I am now seeing more than the part I saw as a child. I am becoming a woman and I am becoming comfortable with putting away childish things. Even though I have put away childish things I know I still see only a part. I am comfortable in knowing I only have parts and many unknowns. In time I know I will come in to contact with a more complete picture.
Quote:God is not found in the earthquake, in the blaring trumpets of apologists, in the zealous proclamations of those who condemn. God is not in the extremes. God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.
This is the divine center–the Middle Way: that we have a divine nature, and by knowing that, becoming one with our divine selves, we can connect with others in love and lead them to the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This is the Way we follow Jesus. This is the Way for us to be “even as I AM”.
Be still and know that I AM god.
This is the Way, walk ye in it.
Thanks Wayfarer I really needed to hear this! For many months I have felt such a disconnect with “god.” There were many days I was not even sure if I believed in a god. Whenever me and DH would talk I would say, “I don’t know if I believe in a god anymore, but I hope there is a god.” I just realized that I feel disconnected because I have been thinking of God in the way I used to conceive of what god even is. Your words helped me see I have been moving myself more towards God. Like you said, “God is found in the midst, the middle of all things, the still, small voice at the center of our souls and very being.”
I will never forget when I was in high school a couple of my friends were talking and one of them said, “The BOM is the only book that really matters to read.” I stopped for a second and said, “There are a lot of things you can learn from reading the bible and it is important to be open to lots of different sources of information.” Needless to say I caused an argument with my statement. My friends were flabbergasted that I would say such a thing. I personally think the more sources of information you have the more likely you are to find the middle way which is where I believe truth resides. By only looking at the BOM we narrow our view to the point that we miss a wide spectrum of inspirational things. Well this answers one question I had. I just moved into a new ward. My DH and I are both young and I figure we will both get snatched up for callings as soon as our records are transferred. Personally I don’t feel up to serving in the church right now. There may be a few callings I would do, but a majority I am just not interested in as I try to rebuild a foundation for myself. I wondered if I should be “honest”, but I thought all they need to know is, “Sorry that calling is not going to work for me at this time.” My faith crisis/transition/development is very personal. As many people have said talking to bishops about personal things typically leads to trouble which sadly I have experienced. Leaders do not need to know. Openmind, Welcome to the group! I identified with several things you mentioned in your introduction. I too don’t feel much meaning in rituals and ordinances within the church. The other day I was in the temple and I couldn’t help but think, “Does this even matter?” However, I do enjoy the peaceful environment the temple has. One thing you mentioned has been on my mind a lot.
Quote:My biggest concern is answering our daughters’ questions. I don’t want to divulge too much but I don’t want to lie. They are smart. Their questions delve much deeper than mine did at that age.
I don’t have kids yet, but ever since I have entered this transitional process of relearning what I believe in I often wonder how I will raise my kids in the church and how I will deal with teaching them and answering questions. As a person I value truth and honesty. I try to be as truthful and as honest as humanly possible. It seems like a difficult balance to maintain. How do I educate my kids without forcing my perception on them? I want them to have an understanding of the problems within the church. However, I sometimes look at the pain and loneliness I have had to endure and wonder do I want them to feel this way? Hard to know. Let me know–if you are willing to share–if you find a good way to talk to kids about this kind of stuff.
