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I think the initiatory is tiring for the workers, it’s a lot of language they have to articulate. Maybe they will make that part a recording next. It’s a cultural habit. It’s the same reason that wherever you go, whoever is acting as voice during the sacrament prayers always use the exact same cadence and intonation. When I did it, I would make a point to alter intonation and emphasis, and afterwards someone would come up and tell me they appreciated I had actually memorized the prayers.
But honestly, the announcement is like a big surprise to everyone: “The priesthood will bless and pass the sacrament. Be sure to come next week to see who gets the task next time!”
Or “‘the time is now yours for the bearing of testimonies, until five past the hour.” Next month will they say three past the hour? Or maybe six past the hour?
Personally, taking 4 years to de-program has helped me adapt to my faith transition. It’s not easy to just yank out the plug without consequences, personal or otherwise. I was shocked that after informing my bishop of my lack for orthodoxy they still had no trouble asking me to teach Sunday school lessons to kids. Didn’t bother them at all.
Unfortunately it seems the message of the story is a reversal about the 99 sheep. In this version Nephi should kill the one (Laban)to save the 99.
Quote:1 Nephi 4:13
Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
Caiaphas uses the same language to predict the death of Jesus to save the 99.
Quote:John 11:49-52
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
Whereas Christ seems to instruct leaving the 99 to save the one.
Quote:Matthew 18:12-14
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Rob4Hope wrote:The whole topic of this thread?….I struggle with this particular issue BECAUSE it is a carrot hung out for some, and for others it is just a dead promise. It has been fascinating to see the differences with regards to how this topic played out.
If sexual relations are not needed for children, then it changes the entire scope of things as I have been taught my whole life–another shift in the narrative. We have a HF and a HM…or so we are taught; but, they don’t have sexual relations and we weren’t born?….we were somehow formed or created out of the pool of celestial muck? ….or generated by some ethereal power separate yet eternal with god?
….
There is a doctrine taught by JS that i’ve read (and would like to see a reference if someone can dig it out) that Christ was conceived by Mary and God in the old fashioned way. True of false, JC is considered the literal offspring of God. When I was younger, I use to marvel about this, and for years I simply felt that somehow HF (and I am not trying in any way to be disrespectful here) got his sperm into her without the sexual act. At the time, it was unthinkable for me to consider there was anything sexual. Since that time, I have read things that open up the possiblity, though I don’t necessarily like it.
Anyway, the point here is that the ideals of Father and Mother have specific connotations. To discount that as a cosmic lie, or a cosmic misunderstanding that has not been corrected or clarified by LDS authorities, is another VERY BIG PROBLEM.
Basically, the idea is: “There is no sex in heaven, we are not the children of God, and he just formed us. He likes us to call him father because that is better and more personal than being called ‘creator’ or ‘organizer’, and all that. But, other than him forming us, we have no personal relationship to him other than we were all scooped out of the same celestial sludge.”
….
And, since many of you believe sex is NOT something that happens in heaven, then WHY eternal marriage that is supposed to last into heaven? And, if we are not offspring from God, then why should we have any desire or intention of calling him father instead of “head scientist”?
Just curious.
Regarding God and Mary, I stole this from the Internet instead of typing it out, emphasis to the author.
Quote:“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.” (JoD 1:50-51, also “Answers”, vol. 5, p. 121).
To illustrate more clearly that Brigham Young meant that Christ’s conception was actual physical sex, here is another of his statements:
“The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD–was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers.” (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).
Here are a few more quotes from the 1962 Gospel Doctrine Sunday School Lesson Manual “Gospel Living in the Home,” p. 16-17:
“Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh…” (as quoted from ‘The Articles of Faith’ by James E. Talmage, p. 466).
“We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God in the flesh….how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and make mystery of it?” (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, ‘Box Elder Times,’ Sep. 22, 1914).
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father.” (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).
Some other thoughts
Why do we say that faithful members who miss out on marriage in this life will be married in the next when the scriptures say otherwise?
Quote:
Spencer W. KimballIt matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.
These are the words of the Lord. They were said directly to us.
“Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants [they may be worthy and righteous, but they are ministering servants], to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
“For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.” (D&C 132:6, 16–17.)
But elsewhere in the same talk….To you women, we can only say we have no control over the heartbeats or the affections of men, but pray that you may find fulfillment. And in the meantime, we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help, that the Lord never fails in his promises, and that every righteous person will receive eventually all to which the person is entitled and which he or she has not forfeited through any fault of his or her own. We encourage both men and women to keep themselves well-groomed, well-dressed, abreast of the times, attractive mentally, spiritually, physically, and especially morally, and then they can lean heavily upon the Lord’s promises for these heavenly blessings.
SWK, the importance of celestial marriage, 1976.
The answer is that our theologies, doctrines, folk doctrines and traditions are a jumbled mess. Cafeteria Mormonism is the only way people cope.
Roy wrote:I believe that we as Mormons believe that there will be sex in heaven.
Why else would gender be an essential characteristic, marriage be required for exaltation/godhood, and gay marriage be apostasy?
Not so sure about this.
Jehovah was a God before being mortal as Jesus, and as far as anyone can demonstrate, isn’t married.
The Holy Ghost has no body, and is exalted as a God, and a member of the Godhead.
Elohim was a God before he organized a wife.
Quote:Harold B. LeeA spirit, Abraham says, is an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was. (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.28)
There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it “intelligence,” which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a “spirit.” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.74)
Quote:Joseph Fielding SmithSome of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called
intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created nor made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:127) If the Lord declares that intelligence, something which we do not fully understand, was
co-eternal with him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it. Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligencesspoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:125) Quote:Joseph SmithBut if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.
The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself–that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits.
Quote:Church authorities have indicated that spirit birth was not the beginning. Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote, “Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969). Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, speaking of people’s divine origin as children of God, stated, “Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings” (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14).
So, two things.
1. Spirits are made from a pre-existing, co-eternal substance. Therefore not produced by the body of celestial parents, but is perhaps transmuted in some fashion.
2. There is no indication that anyone but God himself was around when this happened, but celestial sex seems to be a later development, perhaps a holdover from Brigham Young and Adam-God.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.* *Some restrictions may apply, see quote.
Quote:A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing. A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows: A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2. The child is of legal age [NO LONGER A LITTLE CHILD] and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
Quote:D. Todd Christofferson wrote:
If one believes that all roads lead to heaven or that there are no particular requirements for salvation, he or she will see no need for proclaiming the gospel or for ordinances and covenants in redeeming either the living or the dead. But we speak not just of immortality but also of eternal life, and for that the gospel path and gospel covenants are essential.
And the Savior needs a church to make them available to all of God’s children—both the living and the dead. What does God need with a starship? God shouldn’t
needanything. This sort of thinking indicates to me that Jesus didn’t do enough. The endorsement of westernized man is required for universal salvation. I’m guessing it won’t be an unknown fisherman from Gloucester Massachusetts, or a plantation worker from Ecuador. Well there had to be a satisfying way for repeat business. Once you have the initiatory and endowment done for yourself, the only other reason you would go back to the temple is for marriage or being nominated for the second anointing. Temples would be very under used without the idea of proxy work. As inefficient as it is for processing names, it generally serves as a reinforcement of commitment for the members going through each session. They are the ones who have to physically say yes to everything in the ritual, and thereby they feel obligated to obedience by the proceedings. Many then feel rewarded or find meaning in their own way when they get to dwell in the celestial room for a few minutes.
“But it was just really just grape juice,” quipped the HPG instructor. The other high priests nodded in agreement, feeling confident. However one seated at the end of the table quietly rolled his eyes.
