[rich]

Sometimes I feel like Bella 😀

I try to plead the case that I’m in charge of my destiny and consciously choosing the life I want but then when the patient caring Edward figure is waiting there for me to take that step I smell dog and want to go run with the pack for a while.

Oh and I’m often told that no matter what emotion I’m feeling inside I always have the same facial expression 🙂

[rich]

Excellent topic, (although I’ve no time to do more than give it a cursory thought at the moment)

I love the idea that sin is related to actions that make us unhappy. I’m not sure to what extent I fully accept that but its a very interesting start point.

I never swear but I never have a problem with people who do. I find swearing a question of context and appropriateness rather than sin.

[rich]

Welcome!

Only been here a few days myself but loving the feeling of acceptance and catharsis already.

The shared experiences of the many intros I’ve read on here reminds me of the lines from an old Billy Joel song,

‘ they’re sharing a drink they call loneliness, but its better than drinking alone’

[rich]

Hello!

Bit weird me welcoming you when it was you who told me about this board!

I think you pretty much know my thoughts on this one but what you said below is one of the things exercising my mind at the moment.

littlelostsheep wrote:

faith was not about knowing and could even be just wanting to believe or wanting to have a hope of believing.

I`d always had this concept that faith was an enhanced form of belief. We believed something was true and then once we let it compel us into action it bacame faith. I`m begining to turn this on its head and its becoming quite enlightening. what if at one level faith is unrelated to belief? I have very little belief, but I have a lot of hope. Hope compels me to act.

I`m starting to appreciate that faith is a choice. I think I have been waiting, weighing up the evidence and expecting, after all my analysis, for the correct route I should take to fall out of the equation. That hasn`t happened and I no longer feel thats the way it works. There are compelling data points on both sides of the argument. Like you I quickly realised I knew nothing and that was empowering, really quite intoxicating too. My opportunity, now I have cast aside all the baggage and the things I no longer require, is to start at the ground floor and actively choose those concepts that I am going to build my faith upon. As Alma directs I will experiment on them and, if they feel good, they stay.

You`ve studied enough to know about our propensity for self deception, confirmation bias, etc and these are pitfalls that will catch us over and over. Hopefully having broken the old paradigm though we can be honest enough with ourselves now to be on the look out for these and have a fighting chance of making something of value.

Forget belief for now. I`m all for faith, hope and lots of charity.

I think it was Wayfarer, possibly on this board or NOM who said something along these lines very recently and it really resonated with me.

As an aside, its an interesting exercise to not cast aside the things you once felt were true but to pick them up and turn them on their head. Revisit them from a new angle. It may just be that much of what I had based my testimony on is actually true but I was just looking at it wrong. Humility forces me to conceed that I may be wrong about a great many things.

[rich]

kristmace wrote:

Rich,

Great to see you around these boards. Hope you and your family are ok, I’ve not seen any of your for a good few years now. One of my fondest memories in my early years in the church was your wife teaching me in primary.

I assume that you’ve read my recent introduction, and being so early in my ‘crisis’ I would love any advice you have to offer on these forums. It’s incredibly reassuring to realise that people who you know in the church feel the same/similar.

Hi Kristmace

Yes my wife still tells stories of when she used to babysit you!

I read you introduction with interest, especially knowing who you were. I have to say I was suprised when I first heard but agree it is very reassuring to find kindred spirits among the people you know. Its comforting to find someone who is a good honest church member experiencing the same things that I did and it helps me realise that I wasn`t just some loner oddball when I went through this myself. I guess the word I`m looking for is `validating`. I wouldn`t wish it on anyone but I can`t help but feel, rightly or wrongly, that I`m a better me than I was before. I know myself better. My advice for what its worth is take it steady (although not as steady as I did ), set your boundaries. Focus on your relationship with your wife. It was a massive relief to my wife when she realised I wasn`t about to abandon all sense of morality and go all cats and dogs sleeping together on her.

It takes time.

Of course you`re more than welcome to fire any question my way via personal messages. It goes without saying that anything you say goes no further than me. We need our space to work through it all. I guarantee you`ll help me just as much.

[rich]

brit-exmo wrote:

hi rich

‘eya’ from another brit! Nice to see a few more of us on here… kudo’s to you for keeping up appearances for 16 years that’s some going! if you know kristmaces family i am assuming you are up north somewhere, same here, though don’t take that as an obligation to share any more personal info, i know what a fine line it can be regards online identity and the church.

interested to hear your input, when you can, despite posting via phone! i do a daily commute into leeds and find good posting time on the train…. and for listening to podcasts (mormon stories and mormon expression are good!)

I had my crisis 10 years ago but was pretty open about it, I should have taken your route and said nowt! As I am now finding it harder to integrate due to the perception of being the ‘anti’ in the ward.

yes its fair to say that I`m a stranger in a strange land mixing it with the tribes of the North

Amen to Mormon Stories (and lately a Thoughtful Faith..can Phil Barlow be my home teacher?)

Never quite sure to what extent I kept quiet to be honest. I didn`t come out publicly with concerns but thats mainly because I`m an internal sort of person. Those that mattered to me in my ward knew. The first church leader I told was my stake president (about 9 or 10 years ago) when he interviewed me for a stake calling. I was in a generous mood that day so when he asked me about my relationship to God it felt easy to say “I have no idea if he even exists”. Don`t think he was expecting that. Despite that he still offered me the call and I accepted. Turned out to be a good decision. I had little if any testimony but I got to serve some good people and felt I made a difference to them. My last bishop was a good man. He knew where I stood. He knew I was doing my best with what I was able to do and each time it came round to temple recommends our interviews would consist of him reinterpretting all my answers in a way that allowed him to sign it. I realise that my experience may not be common though.

I can imagine that being the prodigal son can hang over you in many wards. What brought you back? One of the greatest and most immediate results of losing faith was that I lost the `us` and `them` mentality. Almost straight away there was just an `us`. I hear thats pretty common though from people I`ve spoken to.

[rich]

mackay11 wrote:

I missed you saying you were british. me too

There was some open letter by 12 british members online somewhere. Do any of you know the signatories?

I have been wondering what the impact of the cultural evolution in Britain may be having on mormon attitudes.

To be in a situation where the vote on full gay marriage (including religious) this week in the house of commons makes me realise that even the Tories are more progressive than the Mormons. Given I tend to be a lib dem/labour voter, that hurts!

I have absolutely full support for the vote. This, amongst many other societal issues is one of the things that has played on my mind during the process.

Brother!

I wasn`t aware of that letter but would be very interested in finding out more if anyone has a link

Its an interesting question on cultural movement. Most of my friends and work associates are to the left of many of those in my ward but given that I`m generally left of centre myself that is a slightly self selected group. What I do notice though is that the younger end of the ward appear much more liberal in their attitudes than that of the older generation when it comes to this issue. But that seems to be reflected in the general population when you look at the age split in the opinion polls on this subject. So it would appear mormon attitudes are migrating in line with the wider community. Of course we do have our contingent of Daily Mail readers in the ward who buck that trend

Personally, LDS theological issues aside for the moment, I`ve yet to hear a convincing argument against gay marriage. It raises its head every now and then in church lessons about how it would destroy marriage but my question is always how? It may alter the legal status of marriage in some way I`m not fully appreciating but in terms of the core of marriage itself, the covenant my wife and I have made to each other, how does it affect that?

[rich]

johnh wrote:

Man….its all sunshine and hugs in here right now! CWald…where are you? C’mon..I will buy you a beer! :problem:

Sorry Johnh, did I raise the tone a little too much

I`m notorious within my extended family for dropping in the occassional inappropriate sarky one liners so will endeavor to continue that tradition. Thanks for the welcome.

yalright brit-exmo! , along with my little sister LittleLostSheep there’s nearly enough of us now to form an alliance and reclaim the colonies..

[rich]

Thanks for the welcome!

yes does sound like a long time doesn’t it. We never know how long these processes are set to last.

Had a lot of opportunity to discuss during that time on the various boards as I moved my way around with my slowly evolving understanding. Spent much of my early days on the “2think” board followed by a stint on John Dehlins “cultural hall” site where I first got to know him. Semi identified with the NOM site for quite a while. Each one was the right place for me at that time.

I think I really took it too literally when someone told me to “take it slow” 😆

Agree with you Mackay11 that there is a way to positively engage, not just as someone on the fringe who takes part, but as an integral part of the community.

[Author]

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