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not going to church due to COVID has been a nice break. We went today for the first time since COVID. I find myself on this forum again. Going to church stirs up opinions and emotions and haven’t had the need to think them out or go to forums when not attending church. We’re considering visiting other churches to give our kids more balance and perspective. Any suggestions? Would have to be a church that doesn’t have dogmatic views and prescribed beliefs. Have had enough of that to last a few lifetimes.
I’m not behind the times, I’m just Commenting on where I live. Most weddings in Utah county where I’m from are only in the temple. Aside from recent covid caused civil marriages, I’ve mostly seen temple weddings without civil marriages. The church no longer requires a couple to wait a year if they are civilly married first but most marriages I’ve seen don’t take advantage of that. I think it will work it’s way into the church culture here too but I’ve not seen that here.
When I step back and see that I have to state that I believe very specific things that I don’t believe and pay a significant amount of money to support things I don’t believe, having a temple recommend to me would mean that I compromised my beliefs and wasn’t being true to myself. If someone doesn’t believe in the church and wants to hold a recommend, I don’t judge for playing along so they can be with family for weddings etc. or any other reason. For me personality, I had to draw the line there. The history of the temple recommend is very interesting. The history of tithing in the church is interesting too.
Hopefully, the church will move towards civil weddings for the sake of family members of other faiths and beliefs. Isn’t the church all about family? Why exclude? Marry civilly and go get sealed after. The church already does it that way in many countries.
Trying to explain God into things that he isn’t involved was sort of mental gymnastics for me. If no explanation makes sense and one answer creates two more unanswerable questions, I think eventually we have to accept that there may be a simpler more correct answer we have been to scared to face yet. For me those answers are:
God is not and will not be giving us plagues.
God is not behind the pandemic
God had nothing to do with racism in the church. All credit goes to the men in charge ( even the church admits this now)
God did not institute polygamy
Believing this helps me be less racist, less sexist, and less naive but unfortunately for me it’s those same common sense beliefs and steps to unravel all that cognitive dissonance that led to my disbelief in the Church.
I think to believe fully in the church, you either have to not ask those types of questions ( which works for a lot of people ) or if you are inquisitive and not afraid of truth wherever it may be found, then you will find yourself doing mental gymnastics until you either retreat back to not asking questions or surrender to new beliefs.
That’s how the process has been for me. I had an answer for all my doubts until I allowed myself to ask harder and harder questions and ran out of answers. I eventually had to change one variable and it all made sense.
For me it’s a liberating and scary place to be. The church had all the answers and now I have so few.
Love both these new responses. I think both of you are confident in your beliefs and considerate in your approaches. I see many attack and criticize the church and that seems to cause a rift. I like that you respectfully and confidently hold your ground. I think that merits respect from family and neighbors and that’s a big reason your experiences have been good. I’m not saying that someone else will always have that same experience if they took the same approach, but I think to a large extent, the way you’ve handled it has set the stage for a good experience. Thanks again! Thanks again for the advice!! I realize it’s very different for everyone. I appreciate having place to express my thoughts and get kind and constructive feedback. I think I’m forming an opinion of what I need to do: I don’t like the idea of hiding in a corner. That makes me feel like a victim of the church and will make me resentful ( which I don’t want to be) . On the other hand, I don’t like the idea of judging others because they do not have the same doubts as me.
I have lived in my neighborhood for a long tine and have a good relationship with my neighbors. My current bishop is much more loving than my previous bishop. I don’t like the idea of hiding on the sidelines or feeling like an outsider. My wife feels the same way about the church so I don’t need to tip toe around my family. My wife’s family and mine are kind and honestly will not shun. I know them well enough and have talked to many of them already.
My plan:
I will actively teach my kids to be inclusive, loving and Christlike and not to judge others based on their beliefs. I get the opportunity to let them enjoy the standards and fellowship of the church but remove the inappropriate guilt and interview process most adults went through as children. I get to teach them equality of gender and race and sexual preference. I get live without fear of my children believing different from me or “leaving” the church. I get to teach them that character trumps religious affiliation, that it’s ok to serve or not serve a mission. This is my family and I won’t stand in the sidelines and let the church coach my kids. My wife and I get to “coach our team” Sure, we have to play within the rules of the church and our culture, but I just feel like for me and my personality, I can’t be a quiet , timid observer. I will not be an outspoken opponent, but I choose to be a respectful and kind advocate. I don’t feel the need to announce anything but when the situation arises, I plan to address it honestly. I have to remember that although I feel like I’m on the minority, I’m not. Most of the world lives with religuous uncertainty and probably half or more of the active church members do too but just don’t express it. Let me worship according to the dictates of my own conscience and I will do the same.
Thanks again for the helpful replies. Its been almost year now and my emotions and insights have settled somewhat. My wife and I are pretty much on the same page . I still feel like I have a lot to figure out with regards to the the LDS church but it’s been nice to step back and observe from an outsider’s perspective and to formulate my opinions slowly. Sometime I find it alarming that any of us would even need a forum to discuss our beliefs because believing different than the norm is somehow a scary thing. It’s so messed up that having differing religious beliefs about church history should matter at all. We really have so much in common, but we get too hung up temple recommends, missions, and testimonies, that we forget about acceptance, love and Christ. I need to just be comfortable in my own skin and I trust others will eventually judge me by my character and not assume Satan got me because I’ve lost my faith in Joseph. ( I hear this form the pulpit a lot lately). Shouldn’t it be enough commonality to be followers of Jesus Christ. Let me worship and participate and serve in my church community. I hope the church creates space for those like me. Maybe we just have to create our own space.
I wish a belief in Joseph Smith’s claims should be a prerequisite to joining or participating in the church.
My 12 year old son is to be ordained a Teacher in January. I will still have a temple recommend at that point but soon will let it expire. I realize that I soon may need to have a discussion with my Bishop about callings, ordinations etc. He’s a really down to earth loving guy but in no way will he understand. I expect he will be kind though. My current debate is, do I even need to have a conversation with him or just go on living my life as I see right. If I do have a conversation, it might go something like this:
“I have issues with some of the historical facts of church history. To be true to my conscience, I’m not continuing to donate to the tithing funds, or renew my temple recommend. I am worthy otherwise , I attend with my family, I will continue to serve in callings, but I’m not comfortable teaching about Joseph Smith as a prophet. You don’t need to worry about me persuading others to change their beliefs I respect and understand the beliefs of those around me.
I kind of like the idea of people knowing that I am a non Joseph believing active member. Perhaps that will help those who are struggling with the same issues. I want other to know that they are not inferior for believing differently. I want married couples to know that marriage and family should trump belief in Joseph and not to let these things affect our families. I want struggling members to know that it’s ok to have doubts and questions and there are other options than complete disassociation from the church. I want those who speak harshly about those who leave or disbelieve Joseph to see an active neighbor be honest about it and perhaps convince them to be less judgmental.
Maybe this is all unrealistic and maybe its a bad idea to think I can be openly true to my beliefs in Utah county?
I apologize if this analogy is offensive for some or a bad analogy but I kind of view JS as an abusive father who’s kids and family turned out to be very good people. We, the members of the church, are all the kids. Most of the kids still think dad is great but many of us don’t. I have to be tolerant and respectful of others who still view “dad” in a good light. He started a great family and it’s full of great resources for raising a family. Also, it happens to be my family so even if I don’t like “dad” , to distance myself would remove me from my family and heritage. It’s still hard for me to see Joseph as a a good man with flaws. Perhaps he truely believed what he taught and wasn’t out to defraud. That’s the problem with history, it’s never absolute. Thank you everyone for your responses! I realize my post was vague. I just needed to talk to someone so I started a post. Here are some more specific questions I am trying to figure out. I personally do not believe that Joseph was a prophet. I personally think he may have had some real issues. My youngest child is 3 and my oldest is 13. I’d love some opinions on how to discuss and at what age to discuss my beliefs with them, basically that I don’t believe Joseph was a prophet and that polygamy was never from God and God would never change someone’s skin to black etc. I have two African American children by the way . I feel like the church has evolved into a good organization, but I feel it has backed intself into a corner by holding to Joseph as a prophet. Since I have let go of that belief, I feel like I don’t have to make up reasons and doctrine to explain the history. But, i’m just at the beginning of this and hope to get insight from others who have had some experience teaching a balanced approach to their kids. My thoughts are that younger children benefit from simple rules with less ambiguity but as they start to think more and have questions, I want them to understand enough church history so they can form their own beliefs based on a much more complete picture. My wife was abused as a child more than 30 years ago. It has been so hard. I have learned I have no right to give advice but to simply say I’m so sorry and try to understand how bad it sucks. I’be noticed that the best thing she can do is address and acknowledge it without letttimg it consume her. To her that means keeping a healthy distance from her father ( the abuser) it will be a process and there will be good and bad days but the better days will eventually become more and the bad days less. It’s ok to believe differently, there are lots of us who do. I hope the missionary has been held accountable for the abuse.
