[richalger]

Curtis wrote:

Quote:

Especially the any immodest thought is a sin category.

What bothers me most about that stupid statement is that multiple top leaders have said over and over and over again that it isn’t true – but it only takes one idiotic, hardline statement to over-ride multiple reasonable ones (like the Psychology 101 concept that one highly negative memory will over-ride 7-8 positive memories).

That sort of extreme statement needs to die – and I stab it every chance I get.

What is it that you are stabbing at?

[richalger]

science_saint wrote:

Science is just a word we’ve come up to describe systematic, (occasionally) quantitative, and experimental testing of the nature of reality. I think religion is supposed to be the same thing, even if the tools are currently different. If truth is all the same, regardless of source, then our exploration of what is true and real will eventually yield the same result. 2 = 2 and 2 + 2 = 4 regardless of whether Thomas S Monson, Jesus, Buddha, even Hitler says it. Just as righteousness is no guarantee of truthfulness, so immorality is no guarantee of falsehood. The key to truth is testing. This is why I like Alma 32 so much: even if you start out with a bad seed, testing will reveal it to be so.

I agree

[richalger]

Cadence :

Quote:

Without this the church is nothing, The church should embrace this and expand on it. The Prophet should get revelation to enhance our understanding.

I agree that this is a central doctrine of the church. For what are we saved for but to become more like God? What less than all that God has would be worth it? Any true God would want to share his and her joy with their creations.

That this life is modeled on parenting is a model to me for what is to come. That we raise up children to become parents. I am not sure how that works or all the detail but it is a compelling vision. It is much of what I stay for. I have found no better vision anywhere. It rings true to me.

As far as having the prophet receive more revelation on it. I would not count on anything soon. We must graduate collectively from grade school before learning of higher teachings. Like the prophet Jacob said if we were holy he could teach us of holiness. As it is we must re-learn the basics again and again. I put myself squarely in that camp. I must learn better how to repent. To be humble and cast off the sins that do so easily beset me.

[richalger]

Old-Timer wrote:

…we sometimes lose sight of how radically different the stated goal of Mormonism is than any other Christian religion. (Buddhism’s ultimate objective is similar, but that’s another topic.) We talk of a literal and extensive conversion of character – of becoming fully something we now are only partially. Compared to the more “mundane” goal of mainstream Christianity, we really are radicals and extreme liberals theologically. I think that’s important to recognize and admit openly – that we have a radically liberal theology, taught within a generally conservative organizational structure…

The idea that we actually can become what the Lord says we can become continues to radically shape my view of life. We are not in this for small change. But for ultimate, infinite and forever Good. I love the metaphor of a rough stone rolling. I am to roll on in the path of the Lord. I must put forth my effort. If I follow the Holy Spirit, my rough parts will be made smooth. I have not found anywhere else the balance I see between human effort and God’s Grace.

Orson wrote:

If the purpose of the church is to help us progress spiritually – to help us grow personally, I can’t think of anyway that I could improve on its current composition to help it fulfil that goal (at least for me personally) more effectively than it is currently doing for me.

What is it about the church that is unique in the way it helps you? Would another belief system that has flaws be equally effective?

[richalger]

Old-Timer wrote:

My kids know I don’t agree with everything that is said at church – and my wife jokes with me whenever she hears something she knows will bother me, but they all know I love the Church and the members and distinguish between stuff with which I don’t agree and the Gospel and “pure Mormonism”.

We have a very healthy relationship, and much of that is because they know I am open with them. I am willing to talk about almost anything with them, so they feel comfortable talking about almost anything with me. I am careful to approach things in a constructive way, but I am open.

I hope to put this same plan into practice with my children. There was a time several months ago that I wanted to sit down with my older children and share all this stuff I had learned about. Thankfully my wise wife curbed this and I have come to recognize that as long as I am open with them, opportunity to share how I feel can come out gradually. It is not my job to shock my children. I want to cultivate an environment of openness, careful study of the scriptures, critical thinking, prayer and recognizing the influence of the Spirit.

As for when the kids are all gone, I expect I will attend every Sunday as I have been.

[richalger]

To everyone else: I look forward to participating. Thanks for all the welcome posts.

[richalger]

Old-Timer wrote:

Welcome, friend.

Since I’ve read your blog regularly for a long time and you’ve read mine just as long, I’m curious how you ended up here – if it was something I said at some point or if it was totally independent of me.

You, my friend, are probably the single reason that I felt safe to join this forum. I have come to respect you as my most trusted and wisest friends. I know of your commitment to the church. Your dedication to be a disciple of Christ. To become what He wants you to become.

You have also challenged me in some of my conceptions on many topics. Topics that I think I had taken for face value and had not thought if they were true or not. I smile when I think of some of the Mormon “urban legends” that I have heard. I just accepted them because it was from a trusted source. If I had gotten the same thing today in an email from the same source, I probably would have looked it up on snopes or some other trusted source to see what it was all about. Before I decided it was a true story or an accepted teaching of the church.

So to answer you directly, you have contributed to my journey in a positive way. I participate in a Facebook group but I was looking for somewhere else to participate. This seems like a good place.

[richalger]

Heber13 wrote:

All I have to say for now is “paradox” – it is something that can teach us if we let it, but it can be scary to face when we go to church and feel we should know all things with certainty and doubt not. Paradox is ok.

Yeah, just thinking about the pardox that I have come across in my adventures is making me smile. It is incredible. I truly see through a glass darkly. The best I am hoping for is some strands of truth and goodness. And I will never part with them! Until and unless I see their folly. lol.

It truly seems like the rock foundation I had evaporated. But somehow I feel solid again. Probably a few months ago, I decided to stop waiting for complete and ultimate answers. I am becoming satisfied with the practical answers. Do I believe God lives? yes. Is Jesus the Son of God and my Savior? yes. Was Joseph one of His prophets? yes. Is TCoJCoLDS where God wants me? a resounding yes!

It is the practical answers that seem to have most solace for me. How is the church blessing the lives of my family and I? And then I start counting them.

Paradox indeed.

[richalger]

SilentDawning wrote:

You said a few things though, I wanted to respond to….

Quote:

I believe truth will prevail. Randy quoted J. Reuben Clark in one of his emails, “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” Truth will prevail in more than in the factual “what is real” questions.

I didn’t really see how this counteracted or helped you deal with the hard history you were talking about ….it’s more of a statement of faith that the things you already believe will prevail, and that it won’t be dented even by questioning. That was the message I got — not how you managed to get past the tough history.

I guess it is more a statement of faith. How did I get past the tough history? As I have looked at the whole body of my experience with the church, I come up with a huge positive balance. The same goes for our history on its own. There are warts, but there is incredible beauty, sacrifice, love and Goodness. That probably sums up in the smallest nutshell how I have processed our messy history.

Rough Stone Rolling has so much good in it. There are parts that were disturbing. From the outset Bushman says that he is a faithful Mormon. He also says that he was writing the book from a scholar’s tone, recognizing his bias for the church. It wasn’t until long after I read it that I started to understand what that meant. He was trying to preserve credibility among historians. He was not just writing for a Mormon audience.

[richalger]

Old-Timer wrote:

I hope for a site where my path is valued and accepted as legitimate – where people at least can accept that my outcome is real and possible for those who embrace uncertainty and learn to walk in the light of relative darkness. I don’t want a site where everyone else is like me or is where I am, but I hope for a site where everyone wants the joy and peace I have found – or, more accurately, whatever version of it will work for them.

Amen, Ray

Brian Johnston wrote:

The three important features of StayLDS that differentiate it in the “market”:

1. The information is public and available to anyone who comes to this site. They don’t even have to become an active participant or register. They might get all the help they need just following along in the conversations of people with similar questions.

2. The site is open to people using pseudonyms to mask their real life identity. I hope this allows a larger audience to feel comfortable participating, especially since it is open to the whole internet public.

3. The explicit mission of StayLDS.com is to help people stay in the Church — to integrate back into the faith community. That is the baseline assumption here. This encompasses a different group than some other sites that also have open and frank discussions about Church doctrine and history.

These are good and important features.

[Author]

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