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Orson wrote:

God answers our sincere prayers. Sometimes the answer is “No.”

We are to love our neighbors as ourselves, but we are to learn to be a selfless as possible. (Does this imply a mature love for our neighbor will be less concerned with their personal desires?)

IMO, this is KEY! We MUST love ourselves before we can love others. The opposing way creates codependency and lack of self-worth…and then you are a victim rather than an empowered child of the true God.

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YOU are.

That’s why you’re here….

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Oh, out of the mouths of children! I love it!

I would probably say something like…”YOU are so right, dear! There are many that live their lives like others want them to, rather than how they feel they should themselves. We all need to grow up someday, and I think part of that means that we need to learn for ourselves how we need to live authentically. As we all grow up, we move from depending on what our parents provide for us to what we learn is the best path for us to take. It’s different for each of us, and I hope YOU will find it as you mature too…nothing will make me happier than for you to find your unique path!”

(But that’s just me…)

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Oh, the devil is in the details, huh?!

I tend to be a “big picture” sort, so I think it is clear that the WoW is intended for improving our health. Like so many other “revelations” given to the church prophets, I’m sure the “word of God” was received with a pre-conceived schema, paradigm, or notion of what was “good” and “bad” at the time — with what was known at the time. Thus the racist, bigoted teachings that came in the church’ history — that eventually changed…certainly the WoW can be considered similarly.

So, taking a step back, looking at where we are today, we can see so many differences than in previous times — even in the last 20 years! In medical science, we now know that excessive eating leads to obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, strokes, heart disease…all of which are obviously not “healthy.” This is so much more urgent than the petty little details of tea, coffee, wine, etc., that we really need to look at what steps should be taken to improve our overall health…and that really starts with just a commitment to good eating, exercise, and steps to good emotional health as well.

We spend so much time and energy in the church in the “what shouldn’t we do,” that we forget about the what SHOULD we do! To me that means we should take care of our bodies and souls with the current information we have…and do the best we can with the vast amounts of knowledge we have today. We didn’t get to the place we are today by ignoring the vast amounts of medical scientific breakthroughs that God has allowed us to attain.

Shouldn’t we thank him by using it?!

😮

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canadiangirl wrote:

So my change of heart includes love for myself, more color in the way I see goodness, and a genuine love for all of God’s creations. I’m not so stuck in the black and white of things and I am beginning to see the beauty of paradox.

I think it is ABSOLUTELY a beautiful and real thing! And I also love that YOU are seeing the differences between you, and your parents. Many of previous generations did not have the emotional freedom to explore. My mother was/is that way. My father has only discovered it in the last few years…even though he went through the “disaffection process” over 30 years ago. I don’t feel the need to judge why some of us are blessed with this opportunity, and others not, but I just see it as different journeys for each of us — for some reason.

I say just enjoy your enlightenment…and don’t look back!

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Welcome Zadok! I think you’ll find some very supportive “friends” here that can help you in you challenging times.

I’m going to say some things that might not feel good to you today…but maybe will in the future. My story is similar to yours, but add a pain pill addiction, criminal convictions, loss of medical license, bankruptcy and divorce (not to do the one-upmanship thing… ). It was a lonely, angry, confusing time for me…but as I look back on it today, it was all a fantastic blessing in my life. Really!

The whole process allowed me to cleanse my soul. The forced humbling was what I needed. It allowed me to start from scratch, in every way. I began a spiritual search that took me in a new direction that is sooo much better for me today. Without reservation, I can say that my life is better than it’s ever been.

The thing I eventually learned is not what to do wrt marriage, the church, etc…but how to change my attitude towards life; what to do in my heart with what others say and do. I learned that there is no person better than myself to tell me how to act and believe. I came to be okay with listening to other’s advice, but to take what works and leave the rest behind…and not feel guilty about what others think. I shifted from thinking others were more worthy than I, to an attitude that I was completely okay and worthy…AS I AM!

I forgave others that (I had felt) offended me, and came to realize they were doing the best they could with what they’d been given. Then I learned that true forgiveness was self-forgiveness…and as hard as it was, I forgave myself for what I felt I had done wrong. When you get to that place, it’s amazing how many “temptations” go away. You don’t “need” to do the many things you once felt the compulsion for. Self-love allows you to live in the moment without needing life to be any different than it is. And there is peace.

The specifics of what to do will be dealt with. You may make some “mistakes” along the way…but will learn from each of them. In my mind, whether you “StayLDS” or not, stay married or not, doesn’t matter as much as whether you find self-love. That is the ultimate spiritual awakening. With that, everything else will fall into place. Good luck on your journey!

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bridget_night wrote:

Here is another post by my gay friend on how homosexuality and church doctrine might be able to come together someday:

Hi everyone,…- Brent

Thanks Bridget for posting this. Brent is very articulate and composed in his approach, where many who have been hurt are not as calm in their response to this problem. I agree with everything he says; I especially like how he emphasizes the love that exists between same-sex couples — an attitude that is unfortunately not common in the church in my experience.

I also agree that this seems to be the way prayers are answered…the comparison between this and the blacks/priesthood issue is a good one, IMO. We can only hope and pray that the outcome will be as positive as the last one was!

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Heber13 wrote:

Rix wrote:

We’ve seen what it does to the Catholic clergy!

Not all Catholic Clergy…but I get the point you’re driving at.

Yes…sorry to have implied that. But the point I was trying to make is that for the majority of human beings, sexual intimacy is a desire we have second only to survival.

The church has (mostly) evolved to take a stance that some are “born this way,” but to act on the urge at all is a sin to be avoided to remain in good graces. That concept leaves many with enough guilt and shame that they have taken their lives because of the intense depression and hopelessness they have felt.

I understand the postion the church is in…on the one hand, they lose face if they say “it’s okay” for gays to marry — reversing a hard and fast doctrine deeply ingrained that says marriage is only for heterosexuals. But they also face the reality that this position is bigoted and hateful towards approximately 5% of God’s children — an inconsistent position when the underlying theme of the church is “love.”

But they have been through this challenge before with the doctrines of necessary plural marriage and disallowing blacks full blessings of the gospel…and I’m sure it is possible to take the high road here too and do what is right. It might just take time.

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bridget_night wrote:

Here is the link to the trailer on it: http://www.hulu.com/watch/148938/movie-trailers-8-the-mormon-proposition

How do you think it will affect the church and people’s testimonies?

I’ve seen a few clips of this movie, and know many of the principals involved with it. I LOVE what this movie is doing! It is getting stellar reviews around the world at the screenings. I think it is/will bring much needed attention to an outdated teaching that I see as the next civil rights issue of our time — equal rights for all in marriage.

Having said that, I’m sure some of the content is inflammatory, out of context, and will really irritate many in the church. My step-father has already called it all outright lies (no, he hasn’t seen it!). Welcome to Hollywood style PR.

The reason I really like what it is doing is that it is bringing energy to the clearly (IMO) bigoted teaching regarding our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters. The teaching, although evolving to a more PC approach, still tells “them” they are broken if they act out on their feelings of love towards people they are born to love. As my friend Carol Lynn Pearson says in her play “Facing East,” “it is like telling the flowering tree that you are okay, but that blossoming thing you do in the spring is unacceptable!” How many of you would be perfectly comfortable living a totally celibate life your entire existence? We’ve seen what it does to the Catholic clergy!

So I hope this will be a helpful step to motivate the powers that be to reconsider their stance regarding homosexuality; and at the very least, leave the political arena alone and let those different than most live their lives in peace and with equal rights!

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Cadence wrote:

[

No such thing as flat out truth. I was just trying to point out if there is one truth and God speaks only the truth then it seems logical that he would speak exactly the same to everyone and everyone would get the same answer. So are their varying degrees of truth which accounts for all the varying theology’s or is God not speaking and we make it all up.

My “jump in” here is that I like this line of thinking. I think it seems clear that since there are SOOO many people claiming they have been told by “God,” or “Spirit” such and such…and that the message is so contradictory, that I too take the approach that “spiritual feelings” for me are just that — spiritual feelings. If I try to give it meaning beyond that, I risk interpreting it wrong because there are so many variables.

And I’m sorry (to those this might offend), but I find the attitude of “my spiritual witness is the right one and yours is wrong because it contradicts mine,” quite arrogant and naive.

But that’s just me…

😆

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myclob wrote:

… but what about all those visions in Kirkland?

drug-induced. See: http://www.mormonelixers.org (link appears broken right now…)

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Idaho Coug wrote:

Not to take this in a different direction, but I often reflect on this in terms of what “other” LDS beliefs or practices I find as ridiculous or unacceptable in relation to those I find reasonable and am able to accept. In other words, this process is not just a judgement of “other” belief systems external to our own but also an internal practice as we work through our own beliefs. What is going to remain on my LDS plate as I finally get to the end of the buffet line?

I LOVE this aproach!

Quote:

For example, I struggle with the idea that the Book of Mormon is an actual and accurate history of the people, places and events described. My primary purpose for this doubt is my belief that there is an extreme lack of direct evidence for those assertions. There may be a great deal of circumstantial evidence but the process I observe some using to make that evidence fit often causes even further doubt in me.

From a scientific standpoint, I think the evidence is against the historicity of the BoM more and more…even in the last 10 years, archeology and genetics have caused apologists to create a whole new kind of mental gymnastics. It’s getting embarrasing!

Quote:

BUT, I have an strong testimony that Jesus Christ took upon himself my sins, weaknesses and affirmities in the Garden. I similarly believe that I have Heavenly Parents who live and love me. Both of those convictions similarly have absolutely NO direct evidence to support them. My spiritual experiences and promptings from the Spirit are my evidence. But they would not pass any kind of objective, scientific criteria. And why is that not enough for me when it comes to the historical nature of the Book of Mormon and other things I struggle to find reasonable?

Again, GREAT self-analysis, IMO. I think one reason you might struggle with these is that it is common in the church to follow the elementary, primary advice to use spiritual means to determine physical, historical truth. I think this is a flawed approach. If “we” are to claim historical accuracy of a book, we should use proven, tested, scientific means to ascertain such. The church attempted to do this while I was younger…and failed miserably. I’m ashamed how many Japanese investigators I baptized after using the filmstrip (yes, I’m that old!) “Ancient America Speaks.” There is no possible way “Quetzlcoatl” could have been Jesus…the stories are off by about 800 years! 😳 So it seems the “new,” default approach is to minimize physical evidence, and defer to “spiritual witness.” IMO, not a bad idea if “we” are to save face! Now, if we could just get to the point of using the book metaphorically…. IOW, use the great character-building stories to teach lessons…whether “true” or not!

Now, please don’t take this as a direct challenge, because I can’t judge the exact nature of your “witness” regarding your conviction of Heavenly Father/Mother, and the Savior, but is it possible since this is a “spiritual” event, that the perception you have of the literal nature of the Divine, and the literal atonement of the Savior, etc, are a form of confirmation bias? IOW, you were taught, or perceived communication that these things exist/happened the way it has been described in church teachings/talks…and your experience resonated with that story.

The reason I might lean towards this explanation in many/most instances is that those from vastly different mythologies experience the same degree of faith/conviction about their spiritual witnesses. Also, those contrasting cultures also have applicable NDEs (near death experiences) according to their expectations. Logic tells me these might be similar processes.

I don’t doubt the intensity and reality of the spiritual experience. I’ve had many myself. I’ve just come to question the meaning and interpretation of the experience. But that’s just me….

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All_no-ing wrote:

Dawkins is generally heavily demonized by a lot of religious people. The fact is, he is very analytical and expects those who say something is true to be able to provide evidence of the claim. To me that is not demonic. I define that as not being gullible.

I agree with this. I’m not as anti-atheist as many, and find Dawkins and Harris to be quite stimulating. I also like the description of “memes,” and quite agree with the process he describes. I know many see him as dogmatic, proselytizing, and generally stubborn…but I think that is probably a projection of what we don’t like in each of us! 😆

The only problem I have with these guys is that they tend to define “God” the way religions have in the past (a perfected human sitting on a throne somewhere). I know many still do, but I think there are many today that have changed their concept of Deity. I see definitions of God as “love,” or “the creative energy of the universe.” It seems that Dawkins succeeds in his religion bashing the more he keeps “God” antiquated!

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Hooo boy! What a great discussion…and I’ll add my 2 cents. I’ve read each of the posts here, and perhaps the best I can do is challenge each of you a bit. My challenge is to suggest you go deeper — not in the specific questions and answers, but in the original premise of the question.

Like somebody said, maybe the questions we are asking are simply the ones we’ve been told to ask…presuming there is an answer as “they” say it should be. For example, the question “is the Book of Mormon true” presupposes to most people that there is a physical, historical answer one way or the other. Digging deeper, maybe it means “is it true in the sense that it gives guidance and purpose to me?” Or “does it help me live a better life?”

Then digging deeper from the other direction, is “God” the Mormon God we were taught in SS about? Is the Holy Ghost exactly what we were taught it is? Is it possible that these specific, divine beings are in fact quite different than we were taught…and maybe the evolution of the teachings of such allow us today to view these entities as extra-dimensional energies that we can more readily grasp with today’s understanding of science than a few hundred (or thousand) years ago when the only way to grasp “God” was a perfected human living “out there somewhere?”

Incorporating these new possibilities into the paradigm of life changes everything, IMO. It allows us to more empathetically understand that each of the leaders are/were doing the best they could with what they knew. It allows many levels (like Fowler’s stages of faith…) of members — none of whom are really “wrong,” just have a different perspective.

I know it sounds a bit “twilight sone-ish,” but since we can show that time and space are illusions, there really is no truth as we previously thought…and we can be comfortable living/believing in whatever mythology works for us in the present…and live in peace because of it.

At least that’s how I view it today. But since “today” doesn’t exist, I may think differently tomorrow — if tomorrow ever comes!

😆

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Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:

I am also struggling with the Mission Question. I myself went on a mission and have a realistic view of what makes a mission good and bad. I think going made me more comfortable communicating with people and I learned to be independent and rely on myself, but I hated the “business” approach where Elders were rewarded for Kissing butt to the zone leaders. Where we constantly were getting pressured for discussions taught, etc. I don’t want to see my son have to go through this. I wish I had gone straight through college instead of the mission detour. I don’t know how to express to him without giving him a chance to decide for himself. Anyway I am sure you will hear more from me in the future. I look forward to getting to know u guys better.

First…welcome! It’s always nice to read new perspectives here. Your path is quite normal here…I doubt you’ll say anything that will shock us, so please use “us” as a sounding board.

My approach to the issues you mentioned is a bit different than many here…I don’t attend as frequently as I used to; I find the talks/lessons too conflicting with my understanding, and I find more spirituality in other places. But I admire those here that do, and I think it is possible to remain active even with “our” new understanding.

The way I look at it now is that we are like a sports team. “We” think we are the best in the league, have the best coach, and cheer for each other. From our perspective, we are right!

But from an objective standpoint, we are one of many, all trying to better ourselves the best we can. The “game” is just a way to help us see where we can improve. IN the end, we are all equal, and I can look back on my life understanding that.

I went on a mission, and I have a son that went on one 6 years ago. I have a successful professional life today, and my son is entering grad school top of his class. I really credit “our” mission experiences for teaching us life skills that will help us our entire lives. Great personal discipline, study skills, tolerance (companions, etc.), salesmanship, and so many other things. I don’t regret it for a minute! Sure, maybe we “sold” a product we feel differently about today, but that is true with so much of our lives…what I find important to me today is sooooo different than what I did the first 50 years of my life, etc. Maybe the evolution of our thinking is a great gift we get to enjoy on our brief journey here on the planet?!

Anyway, my advice is to thoughtfully, prayerfully, consider all your options and how it impacts the people important to you…but whether you choose to remain “active” or not, you need to do what feels right to you. Your emotional/spiritual well-being is probably more important than anything else — both to you and your family!

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