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cwald wrote:

Dash mentioned this article on the “Official Doctrine” thread, but I think it needs to go here — for those who are interested in another perspective of BRM Mormon Doctrine.

Quote:

By Robert Kirby

Tribune Columnist

Updated: 05/27/2010 04:33:25 PM MDT

I have a tee-shirt that I sometimes wear around the area here in Utah that reads: Kirby for Prophet!

It gets some good laughs.

😆

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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

[ the Bible…was actually written by many different authors over a long period of time and many of these stories were probably based mostly on oral traditions recorded much later than the purported events and characters they describe.

As Marcus Borg says, “The Bible is True, and some of it happened!”

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Heber13 wrote:

Ray, would you agree?

Yes. (Oh, I’m not Ray )

I like your analysis…and I will say something that might offend a few: I agree that the church (mostly) teaches stage three, and that many get “pushed out” when they feel the necessity to spread their wings a bit. AND I see that Ray and others (John Dehlin, Brian, etc…) have learned that they can find spiritual experiences in regular activity in the church, but understand that it is unique, and many others cannot.

I also feel that many church leaders cannot, will not, understand these other stages of faith…that is not their calling; they do an excellent job of doing what they are best at. Their is nothing wrong with that.

But I also feel that all this is not unique to Mormonism. It’s in every religion/spiritual philosophy. We are all doing the best we can with what we have been given. (have I said that before?)

😆

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cwald wrote:

Idaho Coug wrote:

It really is interesting that literally the exact same feeling that accompanies a heart felt prayer or religious talk also accompanies a song, book, movie, view of nature, or any number of things in our life that can be considered quite seperate from our LDS rituals. And even more interesting at least for me to note is that I have experienced what I consider to be the spirit more through expriences removed from the LDS Church than those experinces within it.

That is my experience as well. Amen brother, Amen.

Yea, and a little beef I have is that many members, when you say that, will say something like, “well, it’s not the same as the “true spirit…!” I think that is one of the most arrogant things for them to say!

(ok, done whining…)

😆

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Heber13 wrote:

Until the church leaders have more truth revealed to them, they hold on to what they have declared in the past.

…or what others have preached to them. It takes a few generations for new knowledge to settle in, it seems at times.

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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Rix wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now.

I agree…mostly. IMO, there are still some harmful discriminatory teachings that need changing. Top of the list is the LGBT bias. I’m right here in the heart of Utah, and I could give you a list of hundreds of dead gays/lesbians that have taken their own lives from the unbearable depression they had after growing up in families that taught them how broken they were being gay. I see this as the next necessary change to bring the church in alignment with love, rather than fear…I will say it is happening, but not fast enough to save the life of one a day (estimates are) that choose to end it rather than fight any more.

I forgot about this when I wrote that and I agree that they really need to stop with all the bigotry against gays but unfortunately the LDS Church is not really alone in this respect because many traditional Christians still share the same views as well. I would just chalk this off mostly as ignorance as well as some of the Apostle Paul’s outdated opinions being given more respect than they really deserve at this point. Sometimes people are really stubborn about letting go of these kinds of dogmatic ideas.

Exactly! Sometimes I may come across as targeting the LDS church for their outdated biases, but I see much more of a problem in other churches…hopefully they will all evolve to be more love-based!

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Idaho Coug wrote:

I regularly feel the Lord telling me that He approves of my testimony as it is, accepts that there are things related to the LDS faith that I currently struggle with or cannot accept, and that He is now expecting me to get up and “do” in the form of service and love for family and my fellow members as well as nonmembers. I have a hunch that through love and service I may find answers and insight that pondering, researching and stewing will never provide.

Thanks Nathan!

Perfect! In my experience, I’ve found that this avenue doesn’t give you the answers, it just makes the questions much less important!

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Welcome Idaho Cougar! I’ll just echo the many great comments here, and thank you for taking the time to organize the thoughts that 90% of us have!

I will add briefly (not to detract from “your time to shine…”) that your list resonates with me. Perhaps the only notable difference is that I view the “Heavenly parents” and the afterlife as metaphor — just that my life experiences have lead me to that paradigm (and I don’t have to wrestle with the continuous “is it true?” thinking in my jumbled grey matter!)

I look forward to your participation here!

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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I could see this idea having some merit if they were still actively teaching ideas like polygamy and racial discrimination as God-given commandments but a lot of these things that drive anti-Mormons absolutely berserk are mostly water under the bridge by now.

I agree…mostly. IMO, there are still some harmful discriminatory teachings that need changing. Top of the list is the LGBT bias. I’m right here in the heart of Utah, and I could give you a list of hundreds of dead gays/lesbians that have taken their own lives from the unbearable depression they had after growing up in families that taught them how broken they were being gay. I see this as the next necessary change to bring the church in alignment with love, rather than fear.

I will say it is happening, but not fast enough to save the life of one a day (estimates are) that choose to end it rather than fight any more.

😥

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findingmyownfooting wrote:

The question I’m dealing with right now is whether or not I can continue in clear conscious supporting the church and raising my kids in it now that I see it with the mask off.

That’s really the crux of it, isn’t it? And I think the answer is different for each person. I’ve already concluded that most of the foundational claims you talked about are like you said. But what do we do about it today?

My answer to the OP question is that I don’t think it IS true — as far as most TBMs consider the question to mean. I’m quite comfortable with the Criddle/Broadhurst et al analysis of where the BoM came from, and I have no question that it is not necessary for me to “do” all the things/ordinances for me to get to the CK in the next life…

BUT, I don’t think there is another “church” that has anything better either!

I try to look at the big picture. Religion and all the traditions have had a significant place in the history of humanity. It has shaped our purpose of life — as well as everything we say and do. Many religions have extreme political and financial power today, Mormonism notwithstanding. Do we just shut them down when we conclude that they are “false?” Or do we change the paradigm?

I like the latter. Take what’s good and “true,” increase/improve the service to humanity and support systems, and minimize the exclusivity and fear-based teachings. I see the evolution taking place…right here, and other forums. It’s a grass roots transition, and is quite positive IMO. I don’t see the change happening overnight…it will take decades. But the way I look at it, love always prevails, and God uses all avenues to accomplish his plan.

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cwald wrote:

Nathan wrote:

…”Dad, this is the best day ever.”… For me, the truth couldn’t be more profound that we are created to be in relationship with one another. Of course, tonight was marked by high ideals and the greatest of expectations. As the days pass, marital discord, substance abuse, depression and other difficulties will bring these folks to my office. But for tonight, the hope of better times is very much alive.

Very nice. Great story. If this is not “experiencing the spirit” then I don’t what would be. More and more I seem have these type of “moments” away from church – doing things that most church members would say is “crazy talk” – like watching the movie Shrek. I started to have less and less “spiritual experiences” at church because of my poor attitude towards the institution. I kind of “turned off” the spiritual LDS hose from the source, and I went elsewhere to find it – other people, other places.

I remember the first time I “felt the spirit” while visiting a crack house in Brooklyn. It shook my faith. How is that possible? Remember the ol’ sunday school lesson that teaches one “cannot feel the spirit in a bar, or one will lose the spirit if they drink a cup of tea, or violate the “commandments” and that one must obey all the commandments if you want the holy ghost to be your constant companion etc etc. That’s hogwash. I understand why we “teach” it that way, but… I’ve come to understand and experience “God” more on a DAILY basis, during the small and mundane task of life, just the small pleasures of life, now that I have stepped back from the church, and just finally admitted to myself that “it” doesn’t work for me the way I was told to live it. I finally gave myself permission to not be this perfect, devout, unquestioning Mormon – and it has done wonders for my “spirituality.” I’m now able to “experience” the spirit more, and more powerfully, now that I no longer rely on the adage that one must “be perfect” or “striving to be perfect” to be worthy of the spirit. I think that realization opens one up to some serious spiritual enlightenment – and it might just come while listen to REO Speedwagon or reading a good Katherine Kurtz fantasy novel.

I love this quote: “Perfection didn’t suit me. I’m done with it.”

This post resonates with me — what both Nathan and Cwald said. I said this quite a while ago on this forum, but I consider spiritual experiences to be a great cocktail mixture of dopamine, seratonin…and external events that allow one to feel loved, accepted, or empathic towards others that have courageous bonding experiences. (basically…)

Now, I don’t deny that that “cocktail” may be influenced by a creative, organizing energy one might call “God,” or “Spirit,” but I am quite certain that no one religion has a corner on the spirituality market. Frankly, I think many events are deemed spiritual experiences by the subject having expectations that since certain things happened in a way that would be unlikely without divine intervention…then the mind creates a story about the event that is quite dramatic…and it gives a person great hope and purpose in their life, so it becomes labeled “spiritual.” And it may be.

I know many here have had powerful experiences, and have labeled them spiritual. I choose not to judge the events of others. I’ve had many myself…and have spent much time and energy analyzing what they were…and to this day I say “I don’t know.” But I am just fine with it, and I continue doing things that make me “feel good,” and find that satisfying simply to have the experience without needing to explain it.

But that’s just me….

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My oblique approach to this is what has helped me get over my former codependent attitude towards issues like these. It helps me today to hear what another says and not feel the need to agree…but instead, recognize that their belief is inspiring to them, and helps them and some others listening to increase their faith and hope.

In my “past-life” I was always asking if things were literally “true.” If I felt they weren’t, I shut down and it became a negative experience. Today I recognize that things may be true for that person, and revel in the happiness it brings them. I try to focus on the positive of that rather than the negative of the disagreement.

I’m sure that doesn’t work for many…but it does for me.

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I love how you approached it, Bridget. Many I know in the church don’t accept the wine, and that can be quite offensive as all they are trying to do is be polite. Your approach to graciously accept it, but let them know YOU don’t drink is absolutely a great way to handle it, IMO!

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Pearl Earring wrote:

Have any of you managed to become so at peace with your decision to break away from mainstream Mormonism that you don’t feel guilty at church?

Yes.

Oh, I guess I should say a bit more, huh?! I attend church only occasionally these days…but not because of any guilt or shame. I “recovered” from that quite a few years ago! I find that guilt is (unfortunately) a driving force for many…but I don’t see it as positive in any way. I know it is generally taught to be a critical part of repentence/forgiveness, but I find it to be based more in fear than love, and in my new paradigm, I try to live from love rather than fear. If I think or behave in a way that is an old bad habit, I find it helpful to go to the source and apologize — not for them, but for my own soulful peace and integrity.

I don’t attend much only because I don’t find as much spirituality there as I find at other venues (in nature, with family, etc.). But I greatly admire many here who do, and maybe I’ll be more like them when I grow up.

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Old-Timer wrote:

I don’t have problems with intellectual tendencies – as long as they aren’t used to deny spiritual tendencies.

Well said! I love the balance concept…and agree that the perception that we are not supposed to study and learn about an issue that is pertinent to us…coming to our own understanding, is over-stated and sometimes used as justification for not doing our “due diligence.” I know many that do this quite often, and they get quite frustrated when something doesn’t add up to what they expected.

In my experience, those that are well read/educated tend to be more understanding of events that sometimes hit us unexpectedly. But that’s just me….

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