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Bruce in Montana wrote:

Interesting thread…

Without getting overly philosophical, I think humans have a mind that cannot concieve of it’s own non-existance.

Now, do we invent spirituality, religion, afterlifes, etc. to deal with this? ….or does the fact that an afterlife exists cause the mind to have this condition?

I love it!

“A History of God” by Karen Armstrong is an interesting read that leads one to believe the former. Without a doubt, religions have evolved dramatically as science has shown what really causes lightning, earthquakes, etc….events that were certain to have been expressions of “God” previously.

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Tom Haws wrote:

It wasn’t you. But you still remind me of him. You are about 8 years older than I. I’m currently 42.

Hmm, he must be strikingly handsome, huh?!

😆 😮

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Wow…great posts here! Yes, I think fear is at the root of most dogmatic religions. It was taught by our parents, them by theirs, etc…and it’s hard to break the cycle. I remember so many times when my kids were young using the same fear-based tactics my parents used on me…then later thinking “that’s not what I should have done! That was my dad talking!”

Basically, Mormonism came from traditional Christianity. Even if one believes in Joseph’s restoration claim, I doubt anybody would argue that he utilized many protestant teachings and cultural processes. And if we go back further, there’s the good ole inquisitions — how’s that for fear-based!

I think if we look at what Jesus actually taught, using the gnostic gospels particularly, he was much more loving than “his” religions that followed. His message was of love and forgiveness. But like my parenting mistakes, I’m sure our lay leadership makes a few of the same kinds of mistakes!

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Thanks all for the warm welcome! I’ve really enjoyed this site…real people and real issues. Thanks Tom for your comments — I was at the Y the fall of ’76, but unless you are my friend the ER doc, it probably wasn’t me. I chose that picture of my new bride and me at our wedding last year…didn’t want to show her off too much!

Thanks again!

~Rix

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wendell wrote:

Poppyseed wrote:

Is the bishop going so far as to say directly that you are absolutely wrong? If so, then I would agree that he is getting into dangerous territory.

Yes, my son says the bishop told him that I have no right to discourage a mission, and that he should ignore my advice. I have refrained from calling the bishop on it, but it really does bother me.

…and for good reason! I have known some bishops that constantly undermine the parents’ authority, and it is absolutely wrong! When the bishop sees himself as the “savior” of the ward, it is his own ego getting in the way of agency. Even if a parent’s advice is wrong, short of causing significant physical or emotional harm to their children, the bishop should respect the parent’s right to raise a family. As a bishop, there were many times I disagreed with parents advice to their children, but I just bit my tongue for the greater good of respecting the parent’s authority.

It also bothers me that some leaders try to homogenize the members. We are each unique, and our individual talents and journeys should be encouraged. But, maybe that’s why I’m such a rebel anyway?! 😆

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swimordie wrote:

Poppyseed wrote:

But they don’t want to be required to call evil “good” in order to be recognized as loving.

In the spirit of not letting statements go unchallenged since they will exist in perpetuity on the internet:

I can’t agree with the above statement. Are you insinuating that SSA or SSM is “evil”?

If heterosexuality is from God, than homosexuality is as well, since both are developed in the same way. I doubt anyone believes that “satan” tinkers with the biological, genetic, psychological in utero or infancy. Sure, evil people do evil things to infants, so this would come with exceptions.

The only reason that same-sex couples are “fornicating” is because they can’t legally get married. If they were allowed to formalize their relationship in the same way that opposite-sex couples can, they would be married and no longer “living in sin”. Society is perpetuating the “sin” by not allowing these relationships to be formalized in this way.

Perfectly said!

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swimordie wrote:

Somehow, some way, this cycle must be broken. I get the sentiments of the OP. At times, it feels like the only way to break this cycle is to break away from the “whole”. Whatever it is, one does need to break away, whatever that means to the one, and find the journey wherein the internal is the source of love, acceptance, and self-worth.

imho

Wow, that about says it all! I don’t think Mormonism invented this codependent culture, but they sure have perfected it. The Catch-22 is that for many, leaving the only support system we BIC folks have known leads to loneliness and despair (because we have been taught to need that external validation). Yet if it can be done, life with an internal compass is so much more joyful and peaceful.

Many years ago I was forced to leave. I didn’t know what to do after getting out of bed in the morning. My entire purpose of life, and each day’s activity, was dictated by the church. I literally went to live in the wilderness hoping that nature would heal my soul.

It did.

I found that the only people I craved being with were my family — not because of some afterlife togetherness paradigm, but because there was a natural, present connection that was evident. I came to love them absolutely unconditionally. I rejoiced in their happiness…however they found it. I stopped trying to change them from living what worked for me, and enjoyed seeing where their spirits took them, and each of them was unique.

I found a new circle of friends — people that stimulated my mind and soul. They were also unconditional. We don’t need to talk daily…we can go months and then meet for lunch and it seems we are still best friends. But if I ever need help, I have dozens of people there for me — and I for them.

My life since then has been indescribably ecstatic. When you don’t need others to tell you you’re okay, there’s no reason not to be!

~Rix

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Hi ???,

I hope you have had a chance to read and understand the posts here; I think most here have a very compassionate, loving view of the “problem” many “SSAs” have in the church. I will add my 2 cents (maybe that’s all it’s worth).

As background, I have many family members and friends that are gay/lesbian…including my sister. I have seen depression, suicide, drug addiction, and deep emotional pain because of the guilt they feel. I have dealt with it from the position of a brother, friend, drug counselor, and bishop. I will echo the sentiment that has been said: the church doesn’t know how to deal with the issue.

That doesn’t mean they aren’t trying their best to figure it out…and to do the best they can with what they know, but we continue to see at least one obituary a day in the Utah papers of one who has taken his/her life because of the hell they were living in. The church can’t change, or train their leaders fast enough to make the needed change to finally give the LGBT people true unconditional love and acceptance.

This is my view: You are a worthy, courageous, perfect human being — AS YOU ARE! It doesn’t matter what you have done, what you do, or what choice you make regarding your church involvement. Nor does it matter what path you decide to take regarding your sexuality. You have experienced great love with the healing touch you mentioned. I think that’s beautiful. You have, and will continue to express your love for yourself and others in ways sexual and not. It’s all beautiful.

The guilt is man-made…it has been taught you by people who don’t understand. They were taught by their forebearers that did not understand. It’s okay. They will learn someday.

Consider the possibility that the “good feelings” you have for the church are feelings of acceptance and support. We will always have a soft spot for the good parts of our tribal upbringing. It is possible, maybe even likely, that you will find great love and support in other spiritual institutions as well. I think that is important to consider for you. You can get help getting past your conflicts and guilt…and I sincerely hope you do. I wish you the best, and please feel free to PM me if I can help.

~Rix

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Tom wrote:

From one recovering Mormonaholic to another, welcome. Your story is a very powerful one and I’m glad that you are willing to share it with us.

On a side note, I really enjoyed meeting you and your wife at several of the past Utah Co RTG meetings. I hope to see and hear from both of you again.

I wish you peace and success in the future.

Awhh, you’re THAT Tom! (there are too many Toms, I guess…. 😆 ) How are you?! Yes, it seems this sight is helpful for a lot of folks. I’ve enjoyed reading what is posted here — and making a few comments here and there. It’s quite fascinating to me to see the different approaches taken by the posters here. It has helped me see that in a way, Mormonism is my “tribe.” I don’t participate in the services much anymore, but I’m still quite involved in “many things Mormon.” I wonder if it ever goes away?!

Anyway, thanks for responding here Tom, and I hope to chat at the various places our paths cross!

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Hi Annie, I hope you get a chance to read many of the stories and intros here. What I find interesting and helpful is that most here have a different way of viewing the church than the norm. I find it quite refreshing and “real.” I think by reading others’ situations we can find peace in our own quirks.

Craftmomma wrote:

I feel like some kind of hypocrite when I do go to church and I feel guilty when I stay home. What is wrong with me?

I suppose the stock answers are “pray and read your scriptures.” I have tried and I do find some comfort there. But I can’t find the strength I need to get back to where I was even, let alone move on

First, a common thread is the amount of “guilt” many feel. I don’t think guilt is really a helpful emotion, and in fact, causes more harm than good most of the time. I know this is easier said than done with our upbringing, but consider the possibility that guilt, as we have been taught, is man made. My personal belief is that “good and evil” is incorrectly taught in church, and perhaps a better way to view life is that everything is okay. Of course there are “results” of our thoughts and behaviors, and if the results are not what we want, we might consider changing. When we have that attitude, it’s amazing how much more peace we have.

Quote:

My ex is gay, which just adds another layer of “different” on me. And my biggest worry is that he will somehow teach my daughter that gay is OK and she’ll end up that way, too.

I’m just going to say it — Gay is okay. Science is quite clear in the analysis that homosexuality is biological. Would God really allow this to be so prevalent if it’s not okay? And gratefully, the church leaders are gradually coming to understand that. There appears to be 3 – 5% of the human population that are born with a significant predilection to be more physically attracted to the same sex than the other. Yes, there are some environmental factors that contribute to what is chosen, but we now understand the basic foundation of homosexuality, and you don’t have to worry about your daughter “becoming” that way if she is not now. To not have a loving relationship with her father is far worse, IMO.

Bottom line…many here have found a way to continue activity in the church despite a different view than the typical LDS member. I think it may be helpful to consider what it is you like about the church, rather than what it is you think others think you should like (did that come out right????).

Good luck on your journey!

~Rix

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jmb275 wrote:

Rix wrote:

I’ve spent a little time reading the debates and books on “Who really wrote the Book of Mormon” (and that book). I think the jury is still out about whether Joseph borrowed from Spalding, etc., or whether Vogl’s “pious fraud theory” is accurate.

I would say the Spaulding theory is unlikely. It’s a very tempting theory, but the evidence is weak in my opinion. Too weak to say anything definitive.

You may be right…doesn’t matter much to me, but I think “Uncle Dale” (Dale Broadhurst) has done some good work that is compelling to totally rule the Spalding theory out. The latest wordprint study by Criddle et al out of Stanford lends credence to it too. But again, doesn’t matter to me.

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Hi Catamount,

If the only thing you learn from this site is that there are many ways to believe in God, it will give you hope and comfort that you are not alone. I think most of us have had dramatic and strong spiritual experiences, and they are personal and sacred. What they mean to one may be different for another, and I think a great place to get to is lack of judgment of their experiences. I think “God” gives experiences to each of us uniquely. Find the parts of the church that work for you…and let the rest bounce off.

Good luck on your journey!

~Rix

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wordsleuth23 wrote:

The obvious answer is that the book was written by Joseph Smith–a variety of plagiarism, imagination, and local theories.

This is true, IMO. I’ve spent a little time reading the debates and books on “Who really wrote the Book of Mormon” (and that book). I think the jury is still out about whether Joseph borrowed from Spalding, etc., or whether Vogl’s “pious fraud theory” is accurate. There are strong feelings either way. But what I find interesting, and helpful to me is to try to put myself in their time. They call this “presentism.”

Many people had visions and dreams that were considered real messages from God. In fact, dreams were acceptable as evidence in a court of law! So I think it’s even possible that Joseph believed that he was a prophet…even if he made up a lot of the claims. I’m actually compelled to lean toward much of what Robert Beckstead said about possible hallucinogens helping the visionary process back then. I don’t have strong convictions either way. But I think there are good teachings in the book, and I think many benefit from following them.

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wordsleuth23 wrote:

I know a few gay people quite well, and as far as I–or they–can tell, they’ve always been attracted to the same sex. Does that mean they were born gay? Who knows, but it seems likely that most gay people are biologically predisposed to find the same sex attractive.

Great post Steve! I agree with everything you said, but I want to comment on this topic. Like many, I have family and friends that are gay. They always have been. I took to the scientific and medical studies to learn the cause, and everything I’ve read that is done well supports the biological basis. There is a lot out there that is “sponsored” (funded) by purpose-driven groups…mostly religious. Much more work needs to be done, but it appears the biological foundation is quite probable.

With this information, I see all churches (including LDS) softening their stance on gay relationships. The LDS church has already evolved dramatically with the statement “it is not a sin to BE gay, just don’t act on it.”

Like most other doctrinal changes in the church’ history, it will change with the times and the evidence. Unfortunately, many are hurt today with the stance (very high suicide rate in the LDS young male population), and that might become part of the impetus for the church to change. A politically active church doesn’t like bad press…and the “temple kissers” know it!

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Scott wrote:

But in the end, I realized that the Bible is simply a collection “ensign articles” written by individuals with unique perspectives. The message also changed depending on the audience. Throw in a couple thousand years and we have a text that contradicts itself.

That about says it all for me too! Yes, if you believe literally that all modern scripture is “endorsed” by God, then you have to deal with the conflicts. But if you view them as “Ensign articles,” written by people that had strong opinions and selected to be in “the Book.”

I like to view scripture as metaphor now. I take what is helpful for me, and don’t worry about the literality and contradictions. A favorite author of mine, Marcus Borg, wrote “the Bible is true…and some of it happened.”

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