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misfit7 wrote:
I would agree with you mostly except that the LDS church is relatively new/young. Most religions that white-wash their history as you describe are centuries old where the memory and stories of their history has faded and become sort of ‘fairy-tale-like’.
Good point. For some reason we don’t seem to hold the centuries-old religions to the same standards that we do the new ones. I suppose we see them more as “traditional” than the new ones. I mean, how often do you here people ask “is the Roman Catholic Church the one and only true church on earth?” It seems that’s not even the point…it’s what generations of families have been, and is seen as “just what we do…” I’m sure Mormonism is getting that way, but the church is still wet behind the ears, and needs to prove itself to society.
Quote:I agree that the LDS church does a lot of good in society. I wonder however, does it really do a lot of good or does it cause more damage to individual families that struggle with the Cog-Dis in their lives? What about the high rate of drug abuse among ‘good LDS’ kids in Happy Valley?
I don’t know. These are things that I think about as I wonder how far out of the ‘box’ I can be
andbe an active member I agree that the damage is most prevalent in families that are more “iron-rod” like. When parents teach the children “this is the only way you should live,” there is bound to be cog-dis in kids that have a different life experience than the parents — then they feel unaccepted and unloved. This is often the beginning of substance abuse and depression, in my experience. Of course we see it as a “mormon” thing, but I’m sure you get the same result in all orthodox/dogmatic religious traditions too.
Old-Timer wrote:misfit7, can you give us a link to something that talks about high drug abuse rates among LDS kids in Utah Valley. I’ve never heard anything about that.
You “mission-field Mormons” are so out of it!
😆 
There have been a lot of media reports over the last few years here of the high prescription drug abuse rates in Utah…apparently highest in (southern) Utah County (and Utah County is 70-80% LDS). You can imagine the common reasoning about it — mormons don’t drink or smoke, so they find their “acceptable release” with Rx medicines. I just googled your question and found a few references:
“Prescription Pain Reliever Target Population[Please note: we calculated each city’s rate per 100,000 (e.g. the rate of deaths, ER visits, etc. per 100,000 city residents) so we could compare cities to each other.] Data revealed south Utah County (defined as cities south of Provo) as the area most impacted by prescription pain reliever abuse. “South county cities have the most ER visits, treatment admissions, overdose deaths, shipments of prescription pain relievers into their communities, and youth in south county abuse prescription pain relievers at slightly higher rates,” said Nordfelt. “Prescription pain relievers appear more available in the south county possibly leading to higher use rates, higher mortality rates and the highest ER visits across Utah County.”
A few years ago there was a documentary that showed the common process in Utah County called “Happy Valley.” Ron Williams did a great job with it, and I highly suggest it for those interested in learning about the great divide between often naive and disconnected parents from their teenage kids. In the late 90s/early 2000s, I was a drug/alcohol counselor here in Utah. I can tell you there is a consistent pattern in very letter of the law mormon parents and their teenagers…and the opiate overdoses are among the highest in the nation. Very sad, and hard to teach the parents how to deal with the problem. Ron is making a dent by at least starting the discussion here….
😥 GBSmith wrote:“answer the question they ask not the one they should have asked.”
Hmm, wasn’t there a little advice given to missionaries recently that advised the opposite approach? “answer the question they should have asked, not the one they asked?”😆 SamBee wrote:Quote:particularly after the recent research showing the health benefits of coffee, green tea, and red wine.
Green tea seems to have a lot going for it. Red wine, less convinced, because it has to be consumed in small quantities – cheap stuff will wreck your head in the morning, and again, it has our old friend tannin in it. At least it doesn’t give you a gut, like beer.
Cafe coffee can give me heart palpitations though, which can’t be good. That and headaches and various other psychological side effects.
Sheesh, you must be taking much more than average! I consume small amounts of each now (that wasn’t always the case), and am exercising more and eating better. I just had my physical last week. I’m healthier than ever! I attribute that to disobeying the “WoW!”😆 cwald wrote:So I go back again and ask “the wise” — What place do those who choose NOT to follow it, for whatever reason, have in the church, and what can we say to those who leave because of it?
Hmm, I think these are good questions. Of course the answers here will be different than the “average” Mormon, but I try to look at things a little more long-term, big picture.I had this discussion with a neighbor last summer at a BBQ at my house. He is a GA’s son, former bishop, and very active — but apparently a little more free-thinking than most TBMs. He said that the church leadership is really wrestling with the WoW right now…particularly after the recent research showing the health benefits of coffee, green tea, and red wine. Of course it is a bit of a PR problem for the church…when they try to resolve the standard teaching that the WoW is/was inspired by an unchanging, all-knowing God, but today we learn that there are some good to certain substances contained in it.
Couple that with the “egg-on-the-face” if you suddenly “change” the teaching — what does that say about how “inspired” it was?! He said there is talk of reverting back to it being a “suggestion,” rather than a commandment…as it was originally. I also agree that is the best overall step to take. But like usual, it takes time with some “long-timers” in the leadership that probably struggle to change….
But it is very difficult to be accepted in church if you go home and crack open a cold brew. And if it really keeps some from joining, that can’t be good either. I guess time will tell what will happen….
SamBee wrote:I’m not quite sure how beneficial black tea really is. I think it was a factor in my mother’s death.
As for coffee… it’s the acid which is also a problem. Like carbonated drinks, it has a tendency to eat the enamel on your teeth, with or without sugar. Coffee also dehydrates you and is a diuretic (unlike tea, which does hydrate you)
Of course there is always multiple factors…but, most nutritionists and medical scientists would argue that one of the worst long-term dietary problems we have in this country is refined sugar. And the Mormons are helping that statistic along!
SamBee wrote:To be fair though, there are some other issues to tea and coffee as well as caffeine.
Yes, but mostly good things though…the tanin argument is scientifically weak, while the health benefits of green tea and coffee have recently been shown to be quite beneficial. NOW, that’s if you don’t add all the cream and sugar most do….
I’ll stick to my glass of red wine with dinner….
Old-Timer wrote:OK, now I have to claen the water off my computer screen – and explain to my co-worker why I’m laughing hysterically!
😆 😆 😆 😆 But was the “water” in the form of cola, coffee, or tea???????
HiJolly wrote:So what if we attempt to teach the truth, but for some reason we are misunderstood? I once felt a bit betrayed by God when He told me something that I then misunderstood. Finally after many years, I realized my mistake and resolved the dilemma it had produced. As I looked back on my misunderstanding and what it had caused, I could see that in real terms I had lost nothing of real value in the process. It was all good.
HiJolly
I think this has much more meaning than I first realized when I read it. If I slightly alter the process to say that I thought, or perceived that God told me something…and I didn’t understand the meaning, or purpose at the time…but later did — then realized “it was all good” in the end, I think we can apply that to a LOT of things.
I look at it in my life today as the way I “fought” the church when I discovered the white-washings of the history. I had a session with a therapist that I told my issues, and he said a few things that have changed my attitude. He first said, “so what church hasn’t white-washed their history to look good to its members?” Of course, I couldn’t think of any….
Then he said, “looking at the LDS church today, does it do more damage, or good, to society? After I said all the damaging things I perceived it had been doing, I realized the scales tipped heavily to the good side.
That all helped me a lot!
Cadence wrote:I personally would have no problem with the leaders being less than divine in nature. I can respect them simply because they are in a position of authority without the stamp of God endorsing them on everything.
I think most of us here feel the same — for obvious reasons. But “we” here are a very small minority in the church today, albeit a growing faction.I would think the leadership wants to be all inclusive, and let’s face it, there are many instruments in the orchestra, and they are all important. It seems the leaders are evolving slowly to an attitude like you mention…some of them may not even recognize it, but it is good. If they were to immediately say they are NOT prophets, etc., half (or more) of the church members would leave!
God grant us patience…but give it now!
😆 
Wow! What a sad situation…but very real and common (unfortunately). I have so many thoughts about this, but want to say first I LOVE what the others have said so far! George — absolutely genius! I almost don’t want to say anything that might detract from his wisdom…absolutely perfect, IMO. Swim, I’m sorry to hear of your issue too. I find so much connection with my family…I am really quite lucky that despite our vast differences in beliefs, we really get along quite well today.
Wendell my friend, I hurt with you. I understand the circumstances, but it still hurts. I’m going to be direct about a few things, and hope I won’t offend some here. You were raised being told you were broken (in fact, weren’t most of us???). You had feelings that you weren’t supposed to have…and for most of your life you were told, and to an extent, you believed, you were not worthy. It seems you are making great strides towards healing from that most damaging attitude…and of course, I applaud you for it.
But the healing process takes time and work. Just when you think you are almost well, something like this comes along and reminds you that you still have anger, and anger is a projection of self. An angry person is one who is unhappy about something in his/her life, and is projecting that blame outwards. I think it helps to understand that when it comes to issues like these.
Yes, particularly in the smaller, old Mormon towns, the codependency is thriving. People constantly gossip, judge, quibble and are quick to give their perfect advice about how YOU should think, believe, and behave. If YOU don’t meet these expectations, THEY are disappointed. That really defines codependency. Of course it’s not unique to Mormonism…many of us old guys remember Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched?! I don’t think she was LDS….
😆 I think it becomes a form of entertainment in the small towns…not much else to do!So I think one gauge of improved emotional health is when people do mean, bigoted things…and we can let it run off “the duck’s back,” understanding they are doing what they have always done, maybe the best they will ever do…and you not expect anything different from them. In AA they call that “acceptance,” and it’s a critical principle to getting “sober.”
I think I’ve probably said this ad nauseum here, but when I start to feel a bit angry or depressed, I can always look at two simple concepts that I’m not living as well as I need to be to be peaceful — owning my life 100% (nobody else has anything to do with what happens in my life, it’s all me…), and having no expectations of others. I really believe these, and when living them, it is impossible to be unhappy.
Good luck my friend…and let’s keep working on the “personal worthiness” piece!
Heber13 wrote:Inoculation will not prevent all sicknesses, nor will mormonism provide all cures.
LOVE this, Heber!Euhemerus wrote:Oh man, lots of great responses. I’ll just add my “drop in the bucket.”
I’m mostly on-board with Rix (not sure about all the “illusion” stuff, despite general relativity. I think I’m too much of a pragmatist). I despise labels, so I categorically reject questions that ask me to identify with a pre-set statement (sorry Cadence). So my answer to the question is “I don’t know” (I know it’s very unsatisfying). At the end of the day, my biggest mistake in life, pre-disaffection, was my undying certainty in my perception of the church and Gospel. I will not be deceived by such a psychological trick again. As a result, I remain skeptical, uncertain, embracing, wishy-washy, believing, disbelieving, agnostic, atheist, theist, Mormon, Buddhist, etc. all rolled into one.
Yup, coulda said all that!
I’ve tried to respond to this a few times…but I’ve not liked the direction I was going each time. I hate labels. I don’t like the idea that we often ask, and are asked what/who we are. Democrat or Republican, Mormon or Buddhist, etc.. I resonate with certain parts of the democratic platform, and the same for the republican. I AM a Mormon, but I resonate with much of Buddhism, Gnosticism, Atheism, Secular Humanism, and my latest “label” is Ignosticism (mainly because by definition, God is not “defined” in it). But there are parts of each that I absolutely do not agree with or believe.
Having said that, I will say that none of the “choices” resonate with me…mainly because the way I view life today is a bit different than most (probably). I think “life” is an illusion. We create our own reality. My reality is not yours, and vice versa. Did JS see the First Vision the way it is reported? Probably not…but maybe in his mind he did. Or maybe it happened in a dream. I know I’ve had a few dreams like that , so that is “real” to me…at the time.
It’s all an illusion. Time and space are illusions. Einstein started proving that, and many others have helped to explain it since then. So what does that mean? If I had to choose a “Prophet” for me, right now, it would probably be Eckhart Tolle. But only because he is quite popular today in the way he explains spirituality in the present moment. HIs ambiguity and universality of paths is extremely attractive to me. I also love the Dalai Lama…for the same reason.
It’s about living in the present. What works for me? What works for others? They may be different…and I respect each path.
