[Roadrunner]

Old Timer wrote:

A short, excellent article.

Yes, we still have a road ahead of us when it comes to race, but this is a good step.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/06/commemorating-the-1978-revelation/its-because-youre-black?lang=eng&cid=facebook-shared

Curt,

Thank you for posting; I probably wouldn’t have seen this article. I may try to find a way to reference it or talk about in during my ward meetings.

RR

[Roadrunner]

Roy wrote:

Reading the article, I feel that both sides are being less than fully unbiased.

Agreed Roy – the article seemed a little inflammatory but unfortunately I have to say it rings true with me and is believable. I wonder if teenager worthiness interviews may change dramatically in upcoming years and may become heavily scripted or mere formality, for example like the 8 year old interviews before baptism where nothing difficult is discussed.

[Roadrunner]

AmyJ,

I’m so glad it turned out well and that hubby was supportive. I’m sure it was scary at the time and that it’s a big relief.

If you don’t mind I’ll share a summarized version of my conversation with my wife, about 3 years ago. It was date night and we were in the car and pretty much told her I think none of it’s literally true but that I wanted to still serve and support her and the kids. She was supportive and didn’t say much for about an hour and then she started bawling for about an hour straight. Big heavy sobs. I think she saw her celestial marriage evaporating in front of her eyes and I wish I didn’t have to put her through that. To her credit she was never angry and said she’d support me and love me forever. Our marriage in some ways is stronger now, several years later, than it was before then. I feel like I can be more open and honest. It’s hard to explain, I think we both know we have to rely on each other now, not on God or the church to make marriage work.

That’s not to say it doesn’t present challenges and friction – it absolutely does especially when it comes to questions about what we teach our kids. But overall I’m a big supporter of being honest with the spouse. I will say that, like everything in life, this turn of events will continue to evolve. He may internally struggle with your faith transition so keep loving and supporting him, which is sounds like you do.

Best wishes on this roller coaster.

RR

[Roadrunner]

Only Love wrote:

Roadrunner wrote:

I have one 18 year daughter who is a senior in high school and a 20 year old who is sophomore at Arizona State University. My answer is a “qualified yes” that it’s worth it raising daughters in the church. There are considerable negatives such as rampant sexism and misogyny but it’s getting better, and is not that bad and even progressive in pockets of the church. The YW leaders in my ward are excellent role models – about 75% of the leaders are highly successful professionals such as a professor at a major college, pharmacist, college basketball coach. Only one is a stay at home mom – my wife.

I’m a stay-at-home mom right now, too. I think it is great for my kids to see multiple options… I hope that they will know they can choose whatever they (and God) feel is best for them. Do you feel like the “rampant sexism and misogyny” in the church were a big stumbling block for your daughters? How did you help to neutralize that?

I don’t feel the sexism and misogyny were a huge stumbling block for them because my wife and I both tried to call it out and explain it when we saw it. The fact that they could identify something unfair and not attribute it to God or some inherent inferiority helped. I tried to be as open as possible with them regarding church shortcomings, including in regards to equality. It may have worked well (too well??) – one of them attends church rarely, the other is a registered Democrat but will attend BYU, where Democrats are an endangered species.

[Roadrunner]

Hi AmyJ,

That really sucks. I’m sorry you’re going through this. Unfortunately I can’t find a list anywhere of which programs were cut. There seems to be a decent list of programs that are still available. I have a couple of suggestions / questions.

[list]

[Roadrunner]

I suggest quietly setting up a hotspot in the back of the chapel and Sunday School class every Sunday. You will soon be the most popular person in your ward.

[Roadrunner]

I kind of blow stuff like this off because I don’t believe everything is literally true anyways or that God directs the specifics. I also justify it because any institution is going to have inconsistencies and contradictions. I work for a large and (usually) well run company but if I worried or complained about everything that’s wrong with it I’d have left a solid company a long time ago.

I will say the “keys” thing bothers me because it seems entirely made up yet we base many of our traditions on “keys.” When I hear keys I think “permission.”

[Roadrunner]

If it were me I’d suck it up and go through the temple w my son. Personally I know that if I missed such an important moment that I’d regret it forever. Some people don’t feel that way which is ok too. It may depend on which type you are.

There is no policy about how long you must pay tithing before you get a recommend, although it’s entirely possible your local leaders are ornery in that regard. In my area it’s about 2-3 months. I’ve never heard of a full year although it’s certainly possible. Also there is no official definition of tithing and a lot of leeway about how to interpret temple recommend questions as others have stated.

If my kid were to leave the church and marry in a religion or manner that I had strong reservations about – say I’d spend thousands to attend a wedding in a distant and strange country – I’d almost certainly attend to show my love.

[Roadrunner]

I have one 18 year daughter who is a senior in high school and a 20 year old who is sophomore at Arizona State University. My answer is a “qualified yes” that it’s worth it raising daughters in the church. There are considerable negatives such as rampant sexism and misogyny but it’s getting better, and is not that bad and even progressive in pockets of the church. The YW leaders in my ward are excellent role models – about 75% of the leaders are highly successful professionals such as a professor at a major college, pharmacist, college basketball coach. Only one is a stay at home mom – my wife.

The “yes” part of my answer comes from the social aspects of the church. My older daughter got a generous scholarship from a philanthropy minded LDS member which she would have never received otherwise. My younger daughter will get a quality and inexpensive education at BYU (itself somewhat a mixed bag. She has had high quality friends and experiences she gained from LDS contacts. For example she shadows our stake president in his surgery practice and has the goal of being a medical doctor because of his positive influence. One of my daughter’s best friends is an LDS French girl she met at BYU dance camp, and who she visited in Paris for a few weeks last year.

It’s possible that some of these experiences are the result of good parenting and hard work on her part – and which may have happened outside the church – but I think the church is a significant factor.

[Roadrunner]

mom3 wrote:

To me – David Omen McKay is the penultimate StayLDSer

I think if McKay were a bishop we could approach him with our concerns and doubts and he’d understand. He might even say “I get it.”

I was born just after McKay’s presidency but my parents say that for their generation he was the only prophet they really knew. I’m somewhat saddened to say that although I have great parents that their attitude was much more like Joseph Fielding Smith who my dad constantly quoted by saying “is that pertinent to your salvation?” I wish I would have known President McKay. And also Hugh B Brown.

[Roadrunner]

In the past month I’ve heard each of those. I prefer volunteers but they are all accurate at different times. Being a church of covenants or a church of assignments makes me feel like we have no options but to do as we are told without regard for personal circumstances.

I can’t quite figure out the difference between a calling and an assignment, except the length of time. Setting up chairs for stake conference = assignment but setting up chairs every week for a year would probably be a calling. It seems artificial and arbitrary but I get it because we don’t have time to sustain every little assignment. Often church leaders justify something because it’s only an assignment and they don’t feel as obligated to do the same due diligence as a calling.

[Roadrunner]

mom3 wrote:

Don’t try to convince someone of your belief. It never works.

Share your concerns then step back and wait.

I second this advice and I’ll share what happened with me and my wife. A few years ago I floated the idea of changing how we tithe and I talked about that there’s no formal definition of tithing. My wife disagreed and we just put it on the backburner. Over the course of a year or two she gradually changed her position and there was no forcing or anger involved but it took time.

I will share an unintended consequence though. My father in law and brother in law are both accountants and they together prepare tax returns every year for a large number of clients, including my wife and me. They must have noticed a charitable contribution figure different than what they expected and they sent us a letter trying to gently tell us to pay our tithing. In their defense they probably sent the letter to all of their kids and grandkids.

This letter really bothered me so I threw it in the trash and told my wife we were changing accountants (which we did) because it’s none of their business. I just assumed they would be professional about it, but behold my disappointment was great.

[Roadrunner]

Old Timer wrote:

Also, by refusing to use the word “Gays”. I would never says “Straights”, so I never say “Gays”. “Homosexual people” is longer, but it is much more accurate, kind, and non-dismissive in nature. I know you meant NO negativity or disrespect in what you typed, but recognizing the little ways we marginalize is important.

Not picking a fight Curt but my understanding is that gay people prefer that over homosexual. I work in a company headquartered in San Francisco and hear the language frequently. Maybe capitalizing the word gay isn’t ideal and perhaps that’s the point.

From the GLAAD Media Reference guide (https://www.glaad.org/reference/offensive):

Offensive: “homosexual” (n. or adj.)

Preferred: “gay” (adj.); “gay man” or “lesbian” (n.); “gay person/people”Please use gay or lesbian to describe people attracted to members of the same sex. Because of the clinical history of the word “homosexual,” it is aggressively used by anti-gay extremists to suggest that gay people are somehow diseased or psychologically/emotionally disordered – notions discredited by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association in the 1970s. Please avoid using “homosexual” except in direct quotes. Please also avoid using “homosexual” as a style variation simply to avoid repeated use of the word “gay.” The Associated Press, The New York Times and The Washington Post restrict use of the term “homosexual” (see AP & New York Times Style).

[Roadrunner]

This is a real issue for me because I’ve seen firsthand the negative impact it has on gay youth. I’m not sure this is entirely logical – but it seems somewhat hypocritical for a parent to tell their LGBT child “the church is my ideal so I choose to be in it but I understand if you don’t.” To me it seems almost condescending along the lines of “I can live the church’s standards but I understand if you aren’t strong enough to live it.” It’s hard for me to explain.

I wonder if my youngest son will be gay. He is very “pretty” with delicate features, has long hair, and for numerous other reasons. I’ve told my entire family that if is gay I’ll probably leave the church in support of him. I’m pretty sure my wife will go to the celestial kingdom without me at this point anyways since I’m not a true believer so it doesn’t matter for me.

To answer the question how do I deal with it? I avoid the subject at all costs at church.

[Roadrunner]

Interesting article excerpt from the Apr 2 Wall Street Journal:

Psychiatrists and therapists don’t often ask this question. But a growing body of research over the past decade shows that a healthy diet—high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, fish and unprocessed lean red meat—can prevent depression. And an unhealthy diet—high in processed and refined foods—increases the risk for the disease in everyone, including children and teens.

Now recent studies show that a healthy diet may not only prevent depression, but could effectively treat it once it’s started.

[Author]

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