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I have contradictory thoughts and feelings regarding this which probably means I don’t really know what I believe. There are times when I feel that Heavenly Father has intervened on my behalf and has directly blessed me in the “little things”. The scientific side of my brain says it’s all coincidence. From a doctrinal point of view it seems that free agency is the rule here and that divine intervention is rare, otherwise free agency is quickly relegated to a mere rule of thumb. After all, in wars each side is praying fervently for the other side to die quickly. BYU would win all its football games and Notre Dame would win all football games except for when it plays BYU. Allowing free agency is the only way I can get past the whole “why do bad things happen to good people” conundrum.
However, I think it can be healthy (if not taken overboard) to have a humble, thankful attitude in life. People with chips on their shoulders can be unbearable, as can the people who thank HF for blessing their home run. If you are thankful for your job, you may be more inclined to realize you’re not entitled to it, and more inclined to help those who are struggling financially. Similarly, perhaps being able to accept a little bit of randomness in life is healthy – because sometimes crappy things happen to all of us.
I’ve known about the Calling and Election made sure for some time, I heard about it when I was probably 10 or 12 from my dad who was in the bishopric. We even talked about it in seminary. I had thought it was performed only by the big 12 for the big 12 and so I was surprised to hear about mere stake presidents receiving it. There is a site online where you can find the supposed wording to it although it’s impossible to verify its correctness. I’ve read that part of the ordinance is performed in the home, which I actually think is kind of cool.
To be honest with you, it doesn’t really strike me as more presumptuous or strange than sealing for time and eternity or marrying someone else’s spouse.
mackay11, Thanks for sharing. Those types of speakers and meetings are refreshing and they help renew my hope.
Just a few weeks ago my stake had a visiting GA as the final speaker. He spent 30 minutes talking about living a life that is dedicated to what’s important. He spoke about family and loving and supporting others. We should love and teach our children. Develop and strengthen relationships with our spouses. The ‘deepest’ he got was talking about how great personal sacrifice is sometimes required to dedicate our life to family. Literally not once did he mention JS, BofM, Restoration. In his closing testimony he talked about a loving Savior and Heavenly Father, nothing more doctrinal than that.
My wife and I both left feeling renewed and hopeful. Those are the kind of talks I yearn for.
Hi Johnh, Really appreciate your intro and your humour and insights. Welcome. I’m a newbie myself and find myself checking in once a day – this forum has been enormously helpful.
Eternal struggle 1: I’ve heard it a few places but have never really found it scripturally, but my understanding is that we will be able to repent after we’re dead, or in the millennium, or something. But regardless we’ll be advancing and changing later on. I wish I had references. But regardless, it might have come from the same talks and discourses that said other things we disagree with. I find it illogical that we have no hope whatsoever to become perfect in this life and simultaneously that we won’t be able to repent or change after this life.
Eternal struggle 2: Sorry, have to disagree with you a bit on this one. There are a few things I just can’t get enough of and hope I get to do for eternity. Won’t say more than that.
President Monson. I genuinely mean no disrespect here – I think his age is showing. I’ve seen him in informal occasions and I think that there’s some chance his presidency will end much like that of President Benson’s.
Prophets: Agree wholeheartedly. How can a prophet converse with God while at the same time teaching so many things that just don’t make sense. If revelation happens only a small percentage of the time, what’s the point? Perry strikes me as the one that seems sometimes seems think he’s a member of a very exclusive country club.
And finally, your comment about your Utah missionary peers really hits home with me. I start to get really angry when I think about people who get it both ways (no double entendre intended). Live it up as a teenager, AP on your mission, and bishop at 35. I genuinely struggle with that one and I think it means I don’t really understand repentance. Like you say very well “if you want repentance in your life you need to allow it for others.”
Glad to have you here.
confused_mormon, My post regarding “two kinds of liars” was not mean to offend but after I thought about it, I realize it could be hurtful. My intent was to use a little humor in the discussion.
Having struggled tremendously with guilt about masturbation and thinking about girls during my teenage years, I realize it’s probably not particularly helpful to say it doesn’t matter. Depending on your parents and leaders, we are constantly reminded about the penultimate sin of unchastity. I feel like I wasted my teenage years because I was convinced I was going to the telestial kingdom or that I would be deemed unworthy and would be burned at the 2nd coming. I even wrote an anonymous letter to my seminary teacher asking him to tell his students whether that sin would cause us to burn. For me it was a long journey when at the end I concluded that I simply cannot worry about it if I want a normal life. I have been diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and while I don’t take medications for it, I exercise religiously to overcome worrying about every little thing and all my imperfections. I finally realized it’s not healthy physically and it’s not healthy for my relationships with others.
A couple of experiences to share. I was in bishopric training with a mission president and a visiting member of the 12. The mission president was talking about the greatest challenge facing future missionaries, and he said it was playing video games, not chastity. He said something very close to this quote: “I would rather have a mission full of masturbating missionaries that can relate with people than a mission full of missionaries who played video games during high school.” This was in front of the apostle who didn’t seem upset by the comment at all. I’ve also heard more than one bishop who says that if they prohibit masturbating priests from blessing the sacrament that nobody would be able to bless the sacrament.
I tend to think that a loving Heavenly Father won’t damn 99% of one gender for something so difficult to control. For myself, I had to come to the conclusion that it’s not a major sin. Maybe something along the lines of saying a bad word, but I just can’t accept it’s the same as adultery.
To comment on other aspects of your original post:
1) Prophets. I wish I understood prophets more and could share insights.
2) Why does the church constantly get involved in political affairs. My observation is mostly the opposite – that the church only officially opines on matters it considers particularly important, like prop 8. I know many people who would rather it get more involved by denouncing serious humanitarian problems such as war, large scale rape, slavery, poverty. Politics is a “no-win scenario” in my opinion and I think it’s probably smart to stay out of it, and I wish it would stay out even more, like prop 8.
3) Guilt being swept away. I don’t know many people who feel this drastic disappearance of guilt. Maybe it happens for some and not for others. By far, I think the most difficult thing is to forgive ourselves.
4) Patriarchal blessing. Mine was a great comfort to me. I feel it is personal scripture. That being said, I view all scripture as interpretation through one person for someone else. I wish I had the original reference, but I believe that once Orson Scott Card talked about revelation being a minimum of a series of two translations. The prophet receives the revelation (be it vision, voice, whatever) and then interprets it and records it. The end receiver then has to interpret the prophets interpretation. The same applies to patriarchal blessings, and we don’t even claim that they are near-perfect conduits of heavenly messages like prophets.
Finally, this site may or may not be the site for you. It has been a blessing in my life and I feel better about my life and the choices I’ve made because of what I’ve learned here. Everyone is different and has to discover for him/herself what we want with the LDS church.
Dear confused_mormon, Your original post resonates with me so much. I will write more later, but a truth to consider:
There are two kinds of liars. The kind that says they’ve never masturbated and the kind that says they’ve quit.
I feel like I wasted my teenage years because I was obsessed with that sin and felt truckloads of guilt. Fasted, prayed, skipped youth temple trips, tied my shorts shut, slept out in the open, etc. It’s simply not worth feeling guilty about. I wish my dad and my bishop would have told me to not worry about it. That’s what I’m telling my sons.
Here’s a list of influential talks, often about LDS discipleship. Some are middle of the road and some aren’t. Hope it’s helpful. 🙂 My own feelings about truth aren’t as sophisticated as others posted here, and maybe not as helpful, but there are some things that can be scientifically proven as true. Once you start mixing in human perception it gets messy really quickly. The old saying “perception is reality” might apply to this discussion. If you perceive something as true then it’s true for you. I don’t agree with the statement 100% but there’s some validity to it. If I perceive something a certain way, and if I act like it’s true and convince myself it’s true, then it’s true for me.
mackay11 wrote:Hang on, she’s saying that the drones of MMM should have prayed about whether to slaughter a couple 100 innocent passers by?
Sometimes No, is just the best answer.
Ann wrote:I want to say that I’ve never had the impression that I could reach my own conclusions.
mackay11, I absolutely agree that “no” is sometimes the best answer.
However, I also completely understand it when members say that unquestioned obedience is the expectation. My mission president often expected blind obedience unless you were a missionary he trusted. One bishop angrily reprimanded me in ward council because I disagreed with him (politely I might add). Our own scriptures are full of examples, even Nephi killed someone because he was told to and didn’t want to.
I’m straying from the point of the original post. Right now I accept JS as a highly flawed prophet who gave us a church that has many good things today. The good is what I try to focus on, and living a productive life and raising good kids who have a decent chance of being happy (while teaching them about the ‘weird stuff’). When I think about some aspects of church history, I struggle, but I haven’t heard anything yet that makes me believe JS didn’t himself believe.
mackay11 wrote:Roadrunner wrote:Dear mackay11,
Thanks for this post, I appreciate your honesty and how you organize your thoughts into knowledge, belief, and hope. That looks like a good exercise for me to go through also. Your comment about not patronizing yourself and not denying your own experiences really resonated with me. I’ve had a few deeply moving, spiritual experiences that I can’t deny and can’t explain yet, but when I hear about other people having similar experiences I’m skeptical. I don’t have much else to add because I feel much the same way you do, and was uplifted by you.
On another note, I may ask for the collection of essays for Christmas.
I used to feel the need to discount people of other faith’s spiritual experiences as I felt we had an exclusivity of truth. Over the last few years I’ve come to believe that all faiths have that right and opportunity. This either means we are all able to commune with God in our different ways or are all triggering some subconscious emotional reaction in our practices. I continue to hope it’s the first.
I think the reason so many Mormons loose all faith if they leave the church is that if the conclude the church is based on a fraud, then they can’t reconcile how they have had seemingly strong interaction with God while doing or praying about something that has been discredited.
I think the reason I cling on to Mormonism, (amongst other cultural/family/personal fulfilment reasons) is I’m worried about reaching a similar conclusion.
Hi mackay11. Quite agree, and I realize that when I say I’m skeptical of others’ spiritual experiences that I’m being both judgmental and hypocritical (Not that you’re saying that…) When I hear testimonies, lessons, etc, I sometimes wonder where on the faith spectrum they are and I try to think that it doesn’t really matter and that I should I support them but it’s hard for me not to apply my own experiences and beliefs to others. Really like what you say here.
Dear deepdivered, You have many topics in your post and I’m not sure if my reply will help or not, but I’ll comment on prayer. It is something that I struggle with from time to time, and occasionally as I listen to prayers I’ll make a mental note that this is silly. To me prayer is the very embodiment of faith. By definition you are talking to someone that you cannot see, hear, or sense in any way, and in the usual Mormon definition of prayer, you are expecting a very real response. I am someone who sincerely hopes and wants there to be a loving Heavenly Father, and I live in a way that shows that, but intellectually I don’t think he’s there.
I’ve experienced some things that I cannot explain yet (and don’t really want to), some of which involve prayer. My patriarchal blessing was a great comfort to me as a teenager. I have been comforted through prayer and I feel that some of my heart-felt prayers have been answered. My wife and I pray every night and I feel it brings us closer together – although it may just be the habit of holding hands that bring us close together. Prayers serves as a daily reminder of what I think is important because if I vocalize what I want and need I’m thinking about it and prioritizing it. In my life prayer has been a positive influence even though I cannot say it won’t ultimately turn out to be a waste of time and that my ‘answers’ weren’t coincidence or imagined.
A saying that I first heard on the old TV show M*A*S*H was “there are no atheists in foxholes.” I’m sure the saying has been around for eons. I have no basis to back this up, but I wonder if people who pray are more optimistic than those who don’t. I pray all the time even though answers to my prayers are rare.
mackay11 wrote:wjclerk wrote:Roadrunner wrote:To answer the question – I think that some of the more unpopular church positions might have changed or softenend with an LDS president. In the next few years I believe that some church stances will become increasingly unpopular in the US and around the world. An LDS president might have provided positive pressure for the church to change. That being said, if Romney were elected and if he turned out to be highly controversial or ineffective then perceptions of Mormons would likely be more negative.
So, for those who believe that the Lord is in control of why everything happens the way they do, would it be fair to say that
hedidn’t want Romney to be the first LDS President and recognize his hand in the defeat? Just wonderin’? 😯 In a few months time there will be a rumour that a GA had said in a priesthood leadership meeting that heaven sent the east coast storm to turn voters back to Obama because
Mitt had (insert heinous sin here).
Similarly, I’ve already heard grumblings about President Obama’s re-election being the will of the Lord. It will speed up the 2nd coming.
mackay11 wrote:Roadrunner wrote:If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw.
I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
Ouch! Even the Bishop? Having been a Branch Pres (Bishop lite) that kind of trust is scary.
Yes, indeed – Ouch! But I was asking for trouble when I asked the question. To add a little context we were literally driving to the Mountain Meadow Massacre site and I was explaining to my children why it happened and I said that we ourselves are responsible for our decisions and that we cannot “blame” our decisions on our leaders. She got a little angry and said at least we have to pray about instructions we don’t agree with. So it probably was a a little tit-for-tat, but I think if the prophet or one of the 12 asked her (and she knows Pres Monson and a couple of the 12) that she might consider it.
First, living in the states, I’m glad it’s over regardless of who won. It’s been difficult to get any real news lately and I feel that economic and political progress have been on hold for the last year. To answer the question – I think that some of the more unpopular church positions might have changed or softenend with an LDS president. In the next few years I believe that some church stances will become increasingly unpopular in the US and around the world. An LDS president might have provided positive pressure for the church to change. That being said, if Romney were elected and if he turned out to be highly controversial or ineffective then perceptions of Mormons would likely be more negative.
In my view, Romney’s loss is probably net neutral for the church.
If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw. I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
