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LookingHard wrote:
I would be surprised if they didn’t have a very diversified portfolio. Not thing has zero risk. Even burying it in the back yard has a risk of inflation devaluing it.
I believe they already pay for a majority of church operations with monies from a diversified portfolio – vs tithing – although nobody knows for sure. But the $$ from the mall, from other business ventures which are less well known, land, and an enormous ranch in Florida has to go somewhere. Many members with deep pockets already pay tithing with stock (big tax savings) which makes it easy for the church to either just keep or sell and buy other stock. I’d be
verysurprised if the church doesn’t already have vast sums in a stock portfolio. Over very long periods of time the stock market is often considered the best investment from a return point of view, even over land. Of course, not everyone has the same risk tolerance and investment horizon, but the church’s horizon is years and years. Who knows what the church’s collective risk tolerance is – it probably reflects the Q12, Q70, and Presiding Bishopric who are often successful business owners.
President Hinckley said years ago that people over-estimate the church’s wealth. He pointed out that buildings such as churches and temples do not produce income, so we shouldn’t consider them investments. I agree with that but the church obviously wants other sources of income besides tithing otherwise they wouldn’t build malls, own cattle, and have other business interests.
Many young people probably feel at awe when they first meet a GA. I met my first GA at the age of 11 and 51 weeks. Elder Rex Pinegar visited my stake and my dad took me to a priesthood meeting a week before my 12th birthday (gasp!) and introduced me to him. I walked on clouds all week and was almost surprised that he didn’t get angry at me for attending priesthood meeting before I even had the priesthood. While at BYU I went to most devotionals and kept track of all the GAs I was in the same room as (usually the Marriott Center). I ticked off something like 12 out of 15 apostles in the single year before my mission. President Benson was on his deathbed so I never heard him and maybe a couple of others. The MTC was a parade of GAs. On my mission I met several others including Packer and Faust.
The coolest GA I met was Elder Robert Wells of the Q70. I asked questions about the temple and he gave really cool down to earth answers. He took his time and I think our interview lasted 40 minutes. Elder Wells is still my favorite GA because he seemed like a normal grandfather figure who could just chill. One of the Q70 I met was a real **ck. I think my mission president would have throat punched him if he could have.
Older and more mature now, I still respect GAs but I hold them in no special regard and I probably wouldn’t stand in line to meet one. I no longer believe the Q15 personally converse with the Savior. They pull their pants up just like the rest of us in the morning.
I actually like CTR. To me it means proactively choosing to do the right thing no matter the peer pressure. The hymn talks about a pretty generic sense of doing whats right without reference to human beings or the church. I wish my teenagers would adopt CTR. I can see how some would hear an echo of obedience in the saying but to me if everybody did what was right we’d live in a very different world. I’ve been a minority of one before and I’m interested to hear what others say. At some point the church could self-sustain from an endowment to cover tithing income. Think huge endowment like what Harvard has or what the Nobel prize committee manages. Get very smart, but not overly risky, fund managers to oversee spending and investment. A diversified S&P 500 index fund (the very definition of low risk for stock market purposes) averages about 8% growth a year. I bet you could get a diversified low risk fund returning 10% a year without much difficulty. Say the church’s operating expenses are 5 billion. With an endowment of $50 Billion you could cover operating expenses and not touch principle. Given the huge business arm of the church I think an endowment that size or larger is feasible in the foreseeable future.
Continue to ask for donations for fast offerings, missionary expenses, perpetual education fund, etc.
SilentDawning wrote:I didn’t feel left out or anything.
SD,
I am truly happy for your and the place you’ve arrived at regarding your daughter’s sealing. This post gives me some hope for when my kids marry in the temple. About 80% of what’s keeping me with a temple recommend is that I’ll miss my kids getting their endowments prior to missions and seeing them marry (the other 20% is because my wife wants me to). I know if I choose to miss a sealing I will harbor resentment for my entire life, it’s just the type of person I am – I know it will bother me that I missed something that is so important
to them.I hope someday I can reach your level of emotional maturity. Also, thanks for sharing your rationale, it helps give me a framework to work through my own issues.
RR
I contend that it’s impossible to quantify gross income and that we all chose what net income we tithe. I can name 20 things that philosophically count as income alhough not a single person I know pays tithing on it. To me that means that if you are comfortable with a certain tithing amount then the Lord is too. Most bishops only ask if you lay a full tithe and they aren’t supposed to ask how you calculate that amount.
On a related note Wikipedia lists the the LDS church as the second most wealthy church after the Catholic Church. $40 billion in assets.
I agree that the world is progressing. There are time periods of significant regression (maybe WWII and maybe even 2017) but as a whole the human race seems much better off than even a few decades ago. Economists point out that 200 years ago only a queen could afford nylons. Almost everybody in the US and many parts of the world has more instant access to information than heads of state just 20 years ago. A couple of interesting books:
The Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley
New Ideas from Dead Economists by Todd Buchholz
In almost every measurable way the human race is better off now than 100 years ago. Of course there’s no guarantee we won’t wipe ourselves off the earth with a nuclear war or that an asteroid won’t hit us.
That being said, it’s probably difficult to judge improving “morality.” I took a class from a famous economist once and someone commented that every time a country adopts capitalism that many long held religious traditions are abandoned. His comment was a somewhat flippant progression is the price a country must pay for either capitalism or democracy.
Beefster wrote:
at least a quarter of the guys in this ward do too.
My experience in my local area and family is that that more like 90% of guys do and 60% of girls do. I’d bet that if you look up on the stand at ward or stake conference the majority of the men sitting there hide it. Virtually every young man in the church struggles with it, which is not pleasant to think about as you take the sacrament each week.
Psychologists I’ve spoken to say that porn doesn’t fit the traditional medical definition of “addiction” but that some behaviors are similar to addiction. I don’t know enough to say whether it meets the technical addiction but it seems to drive almost uncontrollable compulsion to view it. That being said, I don’t think it has quite the same degree of negative consequences as say drug addiction. Maybe it does and I just don’t know it…
dande48 wrote:
those in impoversh countries who can barely make enough for their “daily bread”.
Food storage used to be in the new member discussions. When I taught this during my mission (early 90s) to a Guatemalan family that had just been baptized they literally laughed out loud. They were lucky all their children had shoes.
Fuel storage for a year is not possible for almost anyone unless you live in rural United States and can stockpile 40 cords of wood.
My take is that it used to be a commandment during the cold war but is more of an cultural relic now that has rightfully evolved into self-reliance. There is an (apocryphal??) story about President Kimball asking the congregation during a stake conference how many members had a 2 year food storage. A small number raised their hand and he said something like why should I talk to you if you don’t listen to what I say? I have pretty strong feelings about this, having had a bad experience with it. Part of it was my fault and part of it was well-intended but poorly informed local leaders. I won’t go into detail except to say that the lists ward specialists used to send around list x number of pounds of flour per person, y pounds of sugar per person, etc, are terrible ways to store food. At one point during the peak of my TBM belief – at nearing 1999 – I wasted thousands of dollars on food storage and have only used a small fraction.
A logical way to plan for emergencies seems to be the Dave Ramsey method of saving 3-6 months of take home pay. I believe if the world is in such terrible shape that the currency is worthless, you’re probably more worried about surviving the week.
Conceptually I don’t see much difference between medical marijuana and some other prescribed medications. I’ve also never totally understand why Joseph Smith couldn’t drink alcohol as a pain killer (or calming agent) before his bone surgery, but that’s another topic. However, I’ve asked three different LDS pharmacists what they think of medical marijuana (and not one of them is TBM) and they all think it’s a terrible idea. I don’t know enough to have my own opinion but their opinion leads me to believe that at a minimum more research is necessary and at worst it’s a terrible idea.
mom3 wrote:
Moral of this story: Check the calendar before you book a trip. Oy vey.
I don’t know who originated this idea but when I heard it I immediately adopted it. I have a 100 mile rule which states that any trip where I’m more than 100 miles away from home that Sabbath rules don’t apply. Eat out – yes, if it’s in the budget. Disneyland? Absolutely. Early morning run – why not. Skip church, almost always. I’ve advertised the 100 mile rule to my entire family and they know I live it and this rule takes the brunt of hard feelings and even adds a touch of humor.
Last weekend I visited my parents and 4 sisters for a niece’s baptism. I’m the only child who doesn’t live in my parents’ ward and yes, I live more than 100 miles away. My poor mother wanted me to attend church
so muchwith the entire family and I did feel a little guilty. Although I didn’t totally waste the time because I spent all of church tutoring my son in high school mathematics. I made sure they saw me doing math while they were at church. Perhaps the 100 mile rule, or some corollary, might apply to General Conference.
I can’t help but feel sorrow for a broken loving relationship. This world needs more love, not less. Not all people choosing this path will have the same level of support as the brother of an apostle. Also, I wonder when we will see a story about a Gay or Lesbian couple with adopted kids and they divorce to join the church trusting that the Lord will take care of the children.
In about 4 billion years the earth will literally burn when the sun turns into a red super giant and envelopes the earth. That will be about the same time that the Andromeda galaxy runs into the Milky Way. I don’t think the human race will become completely extinct until then – although it’s a distinct possibility given who we have running several of the world’s most powerful countries. I do think that it’s likely there will be a world war that kills a vast number of people within the next 100 years. But to keep the conversation interesting, if we do manage to kill ourselves off I think it will be artificial intelligence / robots. Grey goo.
LookingHard wrote:
I have not really thought about resigning as I think that not paying tithing is actually more impactful, but I am attending, holding a relatively significant calling, and paying tithing on gross. I am doing it primarily for my marriage.So you are not alone.
As my teenager would say: “same.”
