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First impressions when plowing through about 20 pages: I’ve moved on to college. I remember the massive different between reading “Marvelous Work and Wonder” and “Jesus the Christ”. The former was like kindergarten, and the latter?….well, it was college.
Quinn’s book is college. He writes at an advanced and elegant level.
Orson wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:… those other people (like Oliver and Sidney) would have to be “duped”. They would have all had to of been in on it.
What is everyone’s take on that? Do you see all of these others being all in on a fraud?
No, I don’t see malicious fraud. I see true believers. There may be some examples of wanting to adjust a story because the audience can’t handle the way that God delivered it, but behind it all is a strong belief that it came from God.
Orson,…in the book, there was a discussion about “spiritual site”. Basically it meant a type of metaphysical second site that didn’t involve actual eyes. Any ideas on this?
The discussion in the current LDS faith is (speaking about the BoM witnesses) “they saw with their eyes and felt with their hands”….the implication is physical site and physical touch. The book throws all kinds of discrepancy onto that interpretation.
Roy wrote:I am noticing something. In the video link with Elizabeth Smart one of the rape victims was raped by her boyfriend. She later consented to repeated follow-up sexual contact – saying something about “this is my life now.” It sounded to me like she had low self esteem to begin with and almost no self esteem after the first rape – so why bother resisting?
This made me realize how messy some of these cases are. What if a woman was in an abusive relationship (maybe he hits her or maybe he just treats her like dirt verbally). The boyfriend is the aggressor and pressures/manipulates/cajoles her into having sex? She feels trapped and the sex happens (even though she didn’t really want it to). Her self esteem plummets and she does not resist follow up encounters because “this is my life now.”
This woman is clearly a victim but is she a victim of rape? Must she remain silent about at least the sexual aspect of the abuse because to speak up would subject her to scrutiny, ostracism, and possible official punishment? How can she get help? How can the church, the bishop, BYU, and the honor code office respond to this?
OK…for those of you out there who have been bishops and such,…..when a court of
loveis held on a woman, is she allowed to have other female’s present with her during the proceedings? And, have any of you ever known of situations where another woman was consulted BEFORE action was taken for such drastic measures like an excommunications? Also, are there any rules to limit the depth of discussion during the proceeding so the woman isn’t required to describe what happened “in detail”? I ask because I know a woman who was exed at the stake level, and she was required to tell, “IN DETAIL” what she did. She felt like it was a room full of dirty-old-men who were enjoying the recitation. She felt mortified and utterly violated through the court.
I’m just curious….
Let the record show that I can’t find Solemn Covenant about Polygamy in kindle….. ARGGGGG!!!!!!
I finished the “Insiders View” this morning. Moving onto some D. Michael Quinn stuff. Will start a new thread.
Ann wrote:Quote:To me, it does’t sound apologetic at all. The author is outright saying not to bother trying to establish the book’s truth. Instead, focus on whether it can create a better world where people believe in it. That is the power of the book –in its ability to attract people’s hearts and change the world for the better. It doesn’t have to be true to do that — it just was to be accepted by people.
Maybe it’ll just turn out that I was born at the wrong time. It’s hard to even care about its “Truth” while everyone is haggling and creating cultural litmas tests regarding its “truth.” (I’m not sure I have the T’s right, but you know what I mean?) And because there’s so much Truth out there. I’ve been doing what the Givenses recommended: finding my own watering holes. I enjoy reading the New Testament more than the Book of Mormon, not because thousands of NT scholars have settled all their debates, but because it isn’t much of a discussion within Mormonism, and I’m not confronted every week with the realization that I don’t believe like 90% (?) of my fellow ward members, and that they’d consider me a danger to their kids in a classroom.But I need to try harder to clear all that away. So his take on it in that quote amazes me, how he really doesn’t seem to care.
Ann,..I see where you are coming from,…and it makes sense as a paradigm shift. I’m feeling myself start to settle with regards to “truth” claims (which I now reject). The next question is
how?….as in howam I going to learn to live and let live? So, from the perspective of exposing myself to, and contemplating different
paradigmshifts, this makes sense. The “truth” claim doesn’t matter–because another thoughtful question is: “is there goodness in the book as a source of helping people live good lives?” If the answer is yes (and many would accept it is a ‘yes’), then can the book be accepted, perhaps even embraced on that alone? That seems to be what you are saying here, and it is something to think about.
I’ll be done with this book in another day or 2 tops,…and on to the next. James Strang…..BIG RED FLAG…
And all of JS living family joined that church and “testified” that Strang was the successor of JS?
If that is factual, WOW! ….
Ann wrote:From Adam Miller’s “Future Mormon” (p. 111):
Quote:Don’t assume that the Book of Mormon is or isn’t historically true. History is not one thing.
Makethe Book of Mormon historically true in as many times and as many places and to whatever degree you’re able. Shop it around the world… Quote:What other kinds of truths can you make with the Book of Mormon? Can you make a ward with it? Songs? Chapels? Psychiatric treatments? Movies? Paintings? Pharmaceutical advances? Poetry? Political campaigns? Can you make a life with it? Can you step out of the zombie-like haze of anxiety and distraction you tend to live it by way of it? Can you make joy with it? Can you assemble the body of Christ? Circulate Spirit? Can you, as the Book of Mormon demands, make a family with it? Can you use to to keep the children from being cast off forever? Can you adapt and extend and strengthen the promises made to the fathers? Will you allow the book to claim you and counter-claim it in return?
The question isn’t: is the Book of Mormon accurate? Does it harmonize with some simple, pristine, ready-made, pre-established real? The question is: given the claim and counter-claim of the covenant that mutually composes us, what kind of worlds can the book and I make and how many can those worlds gather in?”
I quote this not because I feel the same way – I’m sorting things out – but more out of curiosity and admiration for the way he approaches it.
Ann,…I appreciate the quote. Can I carefully say this quote sounds very apologetic to me? I think you can take this perspective on
manybooks and gather people through them. The book “Tenant of Wildfell Hall” is, in my opinion, a wonderful book about morality and the good guys win in the end. I think you can teach massive amounts of moral goodness from it. But, we don’t claim it is the “most correct of any book on the earth” like the BofM does… hawkgrrrl wrote:There are some things in Palmer’s book that I found compelling, and other things I did not. It’s an interesting read, but not IMO the definitive word on the BOM. Personally, I think the structure of the BOM is very complex (all the narrators), and that it’s largely misunderstood by those who read it in the church. It’s a depressing book about some fairly terrible people who are sexist and bloodthirsty, and the so-called heroes of the book are defensive and not very heroic. While I don’t enjoy it much, I do see it as complex. Some elements do seem to be 19th century, but others are just very complicated. It’s possible he wrote it, but I don’t see Cowdery being in on it. I like Cowdery more than Joseph Smith, probably because I think he’s the only one who was honest about polygamy and consistently rejected it. Sidney Rigdon wouldn’t have had to be complicit except if it was related to the completely discredited Spaulding manuscript.
I really like that Cowdery held to his guns despite loosing his membership over it, refusing to back down about the Fanny Alger thing. My whole life I was taught different things about that whole story, and not until the Bushman book did I get more info. I like Oliver as well.
I will post more as time passes. There are some things in this Palmer book I find compelling as well, but not all–some of it feels like a stretch, like he is grasping at creating a plausible scenario for specific situations or circumstances. The “Golden Pot” narrative seems stretched–but it is interesting.
Did the Smith family read aloud to their children? How can I reconcile that JS had such a rudimentary education, and yet be versed in these other books–especially when his mother said he wasn’t pulled into books that much? They must have had books read, or stories told..something. This is a hole I see in Palmer’s material.
Thoughts?
Thanks for the replies. I am going to check this out — really have a look see. Now, some of you have probably given the JSP a good hard look (and I am going to do the same). Does it show the stuff that is not so favorable in his favor?
On PBS for a little while there, I saw programming where they were going over the JSP. The program was devotional–very much so–at least the ones I saw. From their perspective, they were approaching it from “The Prophet” starting point, as though that fact had already been established.
I know I’m rehashing this, but just want to gather opinions as best I can. I am probably about 3 months out from getting into it. I have lots of other books lined up first…and it takes time to really get through those.
Old-Timer wrote:[Admin Note]: If you want a discussion about a new book, start a new thread about it. It is much easier that way for people who just read to find it of they are looking for something about that book.
Understood Ray. My post above was a musing only….
Well….”Insiders View”. Lots of discussions about this and quite interesting. The Book of Mormon translation is particularly interesting. The parallels with the Bible, right down the line. I haven’t heard anything mentioned about the Chiasmas and all of that, but haven’t gotten that far.
You know, the Kinderhook stuff is devastating to my testimony….just devastating.
amateurparent wrote:About abortion ..
My DD had a friend at BYU Provo who was raped. She ended up pregnant. She and her bishop decided on an abortion. The abortion was done in California. My DD and another BYU co-ed both traveled to California to be with her through the abortion. It was done at a Planned Parenthood clinic. The check was written out to Planned Parenthood. The check was from the church. The girl’s bishop wrote and signed the church check.
There is a time and a place for all things.
Thank you for sharing this. I believe the same–a time and place for everything.
