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On Own Now wrote:
Welcome, R4H. I hope you find a home here.
Rob4Hope wrote:I have had spiritual events happen in my life that are unmistakable. I have felt things reach across the veil and touch me in various ways, and I’ve seen the affects.
I’ll tell you right up front that I’m an Atheist. However, I have had spiritual events in my life too and it’s part of what makes everything so complicated. Not that I think “maybe God is real” or anything, but more like a gravitation toward the spiritual, even if there is no divine source (my perspective). I was once talking to an Atheist friend about why people believe in miracles (he was dismissive of faith). I mentioned that when I was a missionary in Latin America, that I had experiences that I couldn’t explain. He was incredulous and shot back, “C’mon, you don’t believe in that stuff!” My point hadn’t been about my beliefs, but about why people believe. He was so closed to it that he couldn’t allow that people could see things in ways that he couldn’t.
Regarding the Fowler’s Stages, I personally find limited value there. Others like them, memorize them, make their kids recite them on Family Night, do stenciling of them in their family rooms. I have zero problem with that, and if they work for you, great. I do think there is a tiny bit of danger in trying to label ourselves and others with broad-brush generalizations. Each person is different and has different circumstances and drivers. I’ve been an Atheist since the Bill Clinton Era, but I still take the sacrament with my right hand and don’t drink tea. From a 2012 thread:
On Own Now wrote:I’m not totally bought into the “stages of faith”. I find much that is accurate there, but it’s an awfully broad brush, and I find a bit of dissonance in the idea of labeling where each of us finds ourselves in the transition. It also leads to a false sense that progression from the stages is both akin to maturity or evolved state, as well as an inevitability. So, it’s definitely interesting, and I can see my vague image reflected in it, but it’s hardly a roadmap. There are many people who exhibit aspects of several of the stages at once… others who move in the reverse direction, others who skip stages in their entirety, others who never move from one stage to another once they reach adulthood.
Hey OON,…thanks for the welcome. And, I have utter respect for your position and what you feel and say here. You will get no judgement from me.
This Fowlers thing?….it doesn’t fit for some, and others find it offensive as well. For me, it has helped. It makes sense to me, though I don’t pigeon hole myself into a “framework” that is set in stone. All I know is where I am now, what I struggle with now, and where I HOPE to move,…if that is possible at all.
Anyway, part of me understands the atheist position. I have struggled for a while wondering why God, if he exists, seems so aloof. I mean, historically (if we can trust history), JS was so familiar with deceased individuals that he described and compared them to those he associated with in this life. And, all of the sudden such things have vanished away it seems?
Anyway, I’m here. I enjoy learning from other points of view. I try to read really carefully and understand, and that with empathy as well. So, your thoughts, and others, will certainly not be wasted on me.
hawkgrrrl wrote:First, they DID take a wrong turn on that, and given a couple more decades, they will admit it like they did with blacks & the PH and polygamy (sorta). The problem is you can’t be out in front of the church on social issues. You have to be patient, and by patient I mean you have to ignore things because you might be dead before they catch up.
HawkGrl….I use to think that your position was utter heresy and apostate. That was my stage 3 stuff. I have since met several gay friends, all male (in my case), who feel utterly forsaken and lost. One feels he was born the way he is–he does not have a single memory of being heterosexual–not one; and he feels alone and trapped. He wants very much to have a legitimate relationship with someone who he can love and who will love him.
Now, I use to think such feelings were utterly repulsive to me–guy and guy stuff. But, over the years and through being a little more kind and sensitive, I have seen his pain. His wounds run deep….REAL deep. I no longer am so sure that what he feels is any different than what I might feel. Of course it is biologically impossible for him to pro-create, but how does this idea of “sin next to murder” really fit all this?
I do not understand, for example, how a person who spends an evening embraced with a consenting adult has committed a more serious sin then, for example, beating and emotionally scaring a child. This whole ranking of sin is utterly beyond my reach it seems.
I would like to understand all of this better.
One of the sources of my own faith crisis is this utter deferral to authority. One other thing — the questions are prescribed. Recently we have been encouraged in a way to ask questions, but this is in a hostile environment. If you ask, for example, if the church is true?…well, that is acceptable. If, however, you ask why JS had relations with Fanny Alger, and why this was not communicated to Emma (and I’ve read it was probably not–good scholarship supports this from the last I read), well, that gets you called into the Bishop’s office and asked if you reading scripture, saying prayers, paying tithing,…etc.
Interesting how that seems to solve every problem,…just read scriptures, say prayers, pay tithing, attend meetings,….etc.
hawkgrrrl wrote:If you remember Chad Hardy, he was asked by his SP “If Pres. Monson asked you to take down your site (he was the one selling shirtless missionary calendars), would you?” He said no (although his reasons weren’t that bad – he said he kept his much worse business partner in check), and he was ex’d for essentially disloyalty, theoretical unwillingness to do what he was told by church leaders
if they told him to do that, which they hadn’t. Many of the excommunications in the last year have been that same “loyalty” test: would you remove your web site, take down you post, cancel your speaking engagements, stop publishing your book? So, on the one hand, you can say that apostasy is doing something that’s bad PR for the church, but it’s also refusing to blindly obey church leaders (many of whom are lower level folks who don’t even know what they are talking about) which is seen as disloyalty, and disloyalty = apostasy in the de facto definition today. I think this loyalty test thing has been used more than we think, and the term “apostasy” has been used as a kindof whipping post to discourage others from questioning the status quo. It is disturbing to me when the Q15 initiate the disciplinary action, but make it appear the action started at the local level. This seems dishonest to me. It is appropriate for the Q15 to mislead and hide, even lie, for the sake of PR and the “image” of the church? Can anyone address this better for me here?
I have read several things Elder Oaks said about the purposes of the church, the doctrines, and loyalty to the brethren. It is a general teaching (in my neck of the woods) to hear it said: “If you follow the brethren, even if they are wrong, you will be blessed for it.” This is an ALARMING doctrine to me, because it mirrors what cults do. Can anyone address this better for me as well?
With regards to the original post: yes,…the term apostasy has been stigmatized into a horrible word, and its use, IMHO, has been smeared to include all kinds of things, including but not limited to disloyalty.
mom3 wrote:Quote:Now being a silverback gorilla I might kill you with a good hug though.
I haven’t I seen you in the old Samsonite luggage commercials?
😮 That’s IT! That is what my avatar should be…some Samsonite luggage!
YES!!!!
Heber13 wrote:
When you change your frame of mind, you can return to the exact same talks and words and teachings, and see it very differently, even though those words never changed.Thank goodness!
You can also still be involved in the gospel of Christ, not necessarily the “church”, regardless of where, when, or what your circumstances may be. I have learned this for myself.
I can never go back to where I was. The idea makes me shudder. Forward, to a better place….
LookingHard wrote:Rob4Hope – I wish you were closer so you could get a good hug. We all need that from someone from time to time.
That is very kind. Thank you.
Well, I posted out on the excommunicated topic thread, here as well, and have jumped in thoroughly into this new forum. Rob4Hope is alive and well,…still has an attitude,…but making progress and feeling like their just might be some sunshine once again in his life.
Heber13 wrote:For me, the church was so integral to my life and my identity, that I did not think there were options to live life outside the church. I just thought that people who were ex’d were lost in the mists of darkness. There actually wasn’t a story about what happens when you get lost. Just from the believer’s perspective, they weren’t on that path clinging to the rail.
I think as we mature and see things differently, we see there are many paths, and many many (most) people on the earth doing good things we aren’t aware of outside the church. I have good friends in other religions that are better people than me or people I know in the church.
My point…all does not end outside the church.
But…the church has things to offer us, and one can seek to find goodness in life, in or out of the church, whatever works best for them.
Rob4Hope wrote:The church has the power to throw you out,…to Excommunicate you. They do not, however, have the power to take your property, incarcerate you, or any of that stuff. Their power is to remove you from their ranks. And, for that matter, your involvement in their ranks is voluntary in the first place.
This is well said.
They have that power…but one does not need to think they have all power. Life goes on, and you can find goodness and peace in the world. God is bigger than the church.
Heber, it is sad the stigma that often DOES follow those around who have made mistakes. I have read multiple documents written by GA type people, most are from when I grew up–the culture then was very orthodox in SLC (where I grew up)–and in the interest of trying to protect people from sin, the pictures painted were dismal.
“it would be better if you were dead”…type of thing was discussed often. I have family members who honestly figured they were going to hell, so since they couldn’t do anything about it, why not just throw in the towel now and at least enjoy the journey. I mean, after all, what was their to lose?
Such thoughts, when someone gives up, can seem so foreign to those who are living and doing well, but for those who have made mistakes, it is anything but.
I want to confess something here for those who read this thread. I am an excommunicated man. Something that happened to me, and which I have learned to deal with, is that I no longer look to the church for support. Often LDS people can look to their LDS community (whatever that may be) for emotional and spiritual support. What happened to me is I simply found the well to be dry: there were too few who had depth inside; too few who understood; and often those who did couldn’t help if they wanted. I found support outside of the church, though often it came through other “broken” people.
I have felt my own locus of authority shift as I am trying to move past this place of turmoil. I have often marveled how a cheerful word, for example, can cheer a whole room up, breaking away the gloom. You know, I needed those words said to me many times, and they sometimes were, but often not. I no longer look outside of myself for those words of cheer. I choose to generate them myself if I can. AND…that has made a massive difference inside of me.
OK…so according to those other people out there,…those GA type people, being excommunicated is worse than being dead. Well, so be it. But, 2 good things have happened: 1) I know what it feels like, first hand, to feel damned to hell; 2) I can put my arms around others who feel this way, tell them I love them, and cry with them.
And, you can’t tell me that is not of value to those who are broken and hurt inside. I’ve been there. I know JUST how important such contact really is!
And when you feel someone tremble in your arms because they are broken and frightened,…don’t be telling me that love, even from the damned, is of no value.
PS>..Ok..had a little emotion come out in this thread. Read it with a grain of salt.
Roy wrote:I can only assume that getting rebaptized would allow you to engage with the ward without the stigma of being an x-ed member. That is assuming that this is important to you. For me I have a desire to baptise my children (which I can technically do without a TR as long as the bishop does not see fit to prevent it) and participate in other LDS centric milestones (baby blessings, priesthood ordination, etc.).
Again welcome. You are among friends here.
Hi Roy.
I don’t feel much stigma at this point. People have been pretty good to me. When they ask me to do things, I am honest and say that I am only allowed to do some things, but to not feel bad for asking at all. It seems appreciated that I have boundaries, but also respectfully help others know, when appropriate, that some things I can do and others I can’t.
Its all good for me. And,…this is important!!!! I have discovered that the opportunities for services have nothing to do with a calling. You know how many times I have been over to a friends home cheering them up because they have a frightening surgery coming up?…or helping someone move who really needs it?…or calling a friend to tell them I love them and am concerned about them?
The opportunities to strengthen feeble knees and help to shore someone up are LEGION! My bishop, who I am a friend with, LOVES me. Why?….because I am the guy who takes up so much slack where people fall through the cracks as they suffer alone. I know how to cry with someone. I don’t think anyone should ever cry alone. That is not right in my book.
So, exed or not…I know how to love people. I don’t need to have my name on a roll to know how to care. I’ve been to hell. I know what it feels like to feel utterly forsaken. To me, it makes me want to help others,..not because I necessarily have some faith or answers for them, but because regardless of whether I do or not, I do know what love is.
I did some poking around and see a big section on Fowlers, and though many have said the site is not apologetic, from my perspective, a support forum is still “apologetic” in many ways (because we talk about ‘perspective’ that is not necessarily orthodox). Anyway,…glad to be here,…and above all?….glad there is some response and action on this site. Why do I want to come back? Well,.I’m not sure I do. BUT,…I can say this (and will share a more detailed post later), I have had spiritual events happen in my life that are unmistakable. I have felt things reach across the veil and touch me in various ways, and I’ve seen the affects.
Apparently (and I got this impression from other sites I have frequented), such events tend to be more rare for a lot of people. I can’t speak to that–I don’t know; I do know, however, that for me, spiritual “light” is almost a tangible thing. And, when it comes, it ALWAYS has an essence of liquid love involved.
I can’t explain this stuff folks. Its like trying to tell someone what salt tastes like. But,…I’ve had some of those things happen in my life. One time, during a priesthood blessing, I opened my eyes and looked around the room, mentally saying to myself: “Remember this”. I wanted to see what I would see with my eyes,…if they would see anything at all going on. What I was feeling, what was happening, though unseen, was aa real as me sitting here typing.
So,…that is me. I struggle with wanting to come back. I admit that. But it feels even more wrong to just walk away. I think I gotta wrestle and thrash a little more in stage 4 while I make sense out of my position and how to deal with some of the struggles that are still going on.
Holy Cow wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:LookingHard wrote:Hey rob. I think I know of you a bit through 2 other LDS forums. Glad to hear from you even if things are not perfect. I think that most folks that are active on this site are aware of Fowler’s stages of faith. Most have been into stage 4. And what a ride it can be. I think you have even more turmoil with all that you have had with you marriage. I feel for you. This will be a good site for you.
Yo….I do remember you as well. Nice to see a familiar voice.
Ha,…I remember your avatar the most,…that thinking gorilla.
Hey Rob,
As you can see, there are multiple primates here!
😆 Welcome to the site. I wouldn’t really call this an apologetic site. The sites I came across that were more on the apologetic slant, I’ve avoided. Here, I’ve found a great mix of people, with a wide range of perspectives. And everybody is very open to hearing other people’s perspectives and opinions.
I can related to your feeling that there’s no way back to where you came from, and it can be frustrating when people believe they can pull you back to what you once were.
Anyway, I believe you’ll find a welcoming environment here. Welcome to the site, and happy posting!
Mate….your avatar pic has me rolling. I’m laughing out a lung here….
😆 Ann wrote:Hi, Rob4Hope – Glad you’re here.
:wave: Rob4Hope wrote:It does all come down to how much power you give those folks.
I end up back at the beginning. Why was I believing that they had the power to give me something (or the authority to tell me when to receive it), but I don’t believe they have the power to take anything of substance away from me?
Ann,…I was drawn to this thread because I am living in this place myself now. The wording of the confirmation blessing,…the “Receive the Holy Ghost” is strange as it were. They don’t say: “We give you the gift of the Holy Ghost”…or, “We have the gift we give and say Receive it”….they don’t say this. They say: “Receive the Holy Ghost”.
I’m gunna be frank here…I don’t really understand this, and you have brought up a very interesting point. How can you be told to receive something if you don’t intrinsically have the power to receive it in the first place?
One of the things that is interesting, and which I have learned from, is the power wielded by the LDS faith is awesome depending on your perspective. I know people, for example, who are destroyed if they disqualify themselves from blessings, callings, recommends or whatever. Its like their life ends…and there is a disproportionate level of shame associated with their circumstance. What I am saying here is this: The LDS faith is “voluntary”. Period. The church has the power to throw you out,…to Excommunicate you. They do not, however, have the power to take your property, incarcerate you, or any of that stuff. Their power is to remove you from their ranks. And, for that matter, your involvement in their ranks is voluntary in the first place.
Now that I have been removed myself, I have re-examined my involvement throughout my life, and I am amazed at the power I gave the church in my life. The opinions of my peers–because they were “leaders”–has had WAY MORE influence in my life than was healthy. My entire definition of myself was through the LDS lens and perspective.
This has not been healthy for me,…and I have only discovered it now that I am no longer a member.
Thoughts?
LookingHard wrote:Hey rob. I think I know of you a bit through 2 other LDS forums. Glad to hear from you even if things are not perfect. I think that most folks that are active on this site are aware of Fowler’s stages of faith. Most have been into stage 4. And what a ride it can be. I think you have even more turmoil with all that you have had with you marriage. I feel for you. This will be a good site for you.
Yo….I do remember you as well. Nice to see a familiar voice.
Ha,…I remember your avatar the most,…that thinking gorilla.
