[Roy]

As I read the title of this thread, I was expecting to hear that you had been at this for so long that it just became more practiced (to live mormonism on your terms) or maybe that your imeadiate support structure (as opposed to virtual) is fulfilling your needs.

We are all travelers on a journey. Our sojourn together may be long or short. When the time for parting comes, I hope that we have been able to help each other and that the rest of your travels bring you contentment. I think we are all cheering for your success (whatever that means to you). Good Luck! :thumbup:

[Roy]

I have been reading a book that was given to me for Christmas, very pro-LDS, titled “What Happened to the Cross? Distinctive LDS Teachings” by Robert L. Millet professor of ancient scripture and former dean of Religious Education at BYU. There is one passage that I feel has direct bearing on this thread.

Author Robert L. Millet wrote:

“While serving as a priesthood leader many years ago, I had occasion to work with a young man who was struggling with same sex attraction. He had violated his temple covenants but sincerely wanted to change. Church disciplinary measures were taken, and he and I began to work together toward change. He spoke often of how difficult it was for him to be active in the Church, to attend all the activities, and in general to be a typical Latter-day Saint when he felt so very atypical. He committed himself to avoid inappropriate sexual activity but wrestled with his same-sex attraction. One day he asked me, “If I do the things you have asked me to do- go to Church, read the scriptures, fast and pray, plead for divine help, receive priesthood blessings when necessary, and be chaste- can you assure me that the Lord will take away these desires, these attractions? Can you promise me they will go away?” It was a tough question.

As I recall, I said something like this; “I know the Lord can indeed change you, change your heart, change your orientation. I know that he can do that instantaneously if he chooses to do so. I know that the power of change is in Jesus Christ and that dramatic and rapid change can take place. I do not know, however, whether the Lord will change you right away. I do know this, however: If you do what you have been asked to do, and you do it regularly and consistently from now on, God will change you, either here or hereafter. You may be required to deal with these feelings until the day you die. But I can promise you two things- first, these feelings will eventually be transformed; and second, if God does not choose to bring about a major change in your nature in this life, he will strengthen and empower you to deal with the temptations you will face. You don’t need to face this on your own.”

He then shared some scriptures about those who “overcome by faith” D & C 76:53 and “withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ” Alma 37:33.

What does this passage mean to you? By appearing in a book subtitled Distinctive LDS Teachings, how does this represent a departure from (or a continuance of) Gay/LDS teachings of the past? What ever happened to this young man from “many years ago?”

[Roy]

SilentDawning wrote:

Patterns, on the other hand, talk about broad trends, with a significant amount of deviation within the pattern. It describes the movement of the herd in general, while ignoring the mavericks.

Orson wrote:

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett clearly understand the laws of economics. The blessings of wealth that they have achieved are a testament to their obedience to those laws. The obvious error (to me) is when we attach economic prosperity as a purported blessing to spiritual laws. I would say spiritual laws yield spiritual blessings, economic laws yield economic blessings, health laws yield blessing of health (these laws I only wish we could fully understand), while knowledge of physical laws will yield physical achievements, etc.

Thank you for this perspective. Part of me bristles at the suggestion that personal righteousness does not bring personal blessings yet tribal or even national righteousness will somehow result in tribal/national blessings. It just seems like a cop-out that if you widen the perspective enough you blur the details until you are just seeing shapes in the clouds.

But if looked at as a pattern or bell curve following natural results then it only makes sense that a populace with high work ethic, highly skilled/educated work force, where ingenuity is encouraged, etc. etc. would be a force to be reckoned with economically. This still wouldn’t equalize factors such as natural resources and strategic location, but if everything else were equal it should work.

FYI, my dad read that Warren Buffett has around 20 metal filing cabinets in his house. My dad has 10 and wonders if he should get more. Talk about ascribing material blessings from following the wrong law. 😆

[Roy]

cwald wrote:

Being a good mormon is NOT the same thing as being “righteous.”

I must admit that in my faith crisis catalyst, after the floor dropped out, I found myself saying, “I’m not just a good person, I’m a member in full fellowship of God’s restored church, I hold the higher priesthood, I sacrificed 2 years to spread the gospel, I pay 10% of my income as a tithe, I hold an important and time-consuming calling, I made holy marriage covenants at the alter of God- doesn’t any of this mean anything? Does none of this assure me of a charmed life?”

Unfortunately, it seems that there are no paths without pain.

[Roy]

molly wrote:

Even worse seem to be the comments, “everything happens for a reason.” I’m not sure i believe that, especially when it comes to my miscarriage, I would hope that God would have a pretty good reason for this, but since apparently 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in miscarriage, maybe there is no reason at all and it’s just something that happens. And that gives me more comfort than thinking there has to be some reason for it.

“you will get to have your child in the celestial kingdom” Thanks, but i would like my child now. I don’t think that my child is lost in space, but i lost it early that i’m not sure that’s what happens. I would like to think that this soul is given a second chance at life rather than selfishly thinking it belongs to me and me only.

It was fast and testimony today. One woman got up and said something about Heavenly Father trusting her with his children. I hate this statement. Does that mean Heavenly Father doesn’t trust me?? He would rather take his child back then have me raise it? Does heavenly father trust all the addicts, abusers, and unfit parents that he gives children to?

Hi Molly,

It seems to me that you present two main problems: 1) grief and 2) ostracism.

I feel we have some things in common about feeling out of place or odd, but where I really identify with you is in your grief. Our third child, Emory, was stillborn a year ago. You may review my story on the introductions page under When Bad Things Happen to Good People. Incidentally, I posted my intro just 9 days after you posted yours.

I have repeatedly heard the comment, “everything happens for a reason.” I held on to this belief myself for some time. When I first read “Tragedy or Destiny” by SWK, I consciously ignored the part where he admits to not knowing if any divine reason exists for these cases. This (divine plan) thought is not unique to Mormons, so you may be just as likely to hear it from non-member friends. I think the more sinister version of this is that it occurred to teach you something, with the implication that if you hadn’t been so thick skulled maybe God could give you this lesson in less drastic ways. You have already hit upon the reverse side of the coin for the “God trusts us with his children” statement.

Most the time these statements are from well meaning people who aren’t sure what to say. Even people that might be similarly affected with grief (say various members of a family where tragedy has struck or even a husband and wife) react to it differently. It is fairly common to hear of husbands who throw themselves into their work or otherwise avoid hashing and rehashing emotions, sometimes wives feel that the husbands don’t care because they don’t deal with it in the same way. Sometimes people are just jerks but I think that more often than not people are doing the best they know how.

Confronting randomness (it just happens) can be liberating but also scary. It means there are no guarantees and almost anything can happen at any time. There is no gestational period, no age where you are “in the clear.” Why put forth a lifetime of effort, if a lifetime of effort can be thwarted by random events? I am currently grappling with this issue. How much do my own choices and effort influence my destiny and how much is out of my control? How much do I act vs. how much am I acted upon? I find it perhaps best stated in the Serenity Prayer. “God grant me the strength to change the things I can, the peace to accept the things I can’t, and the wisdom to tell the difference.”

I’m not certain of much, but I do know that God loves you, your husband, and your miscarried child.

You are not alone!

[Roy]

Brian Johnston wrote:

God can’t be the “good father” of Stage 3 who helps the needy, if he only gives help to the people who don’t need help. That violates the “logic” of both the Stage 2 quid pro quo negotiations God, AND the image of a loving God who cares about you and picks you up when you fall down (for no payment).

Beautifully said. :clap: We teach both in the church at the same time (stage 2 and 3) yet the two conflict. This brings me to the Tithing Settlement conversation with my Bishop were he was saying that in his experience God never (or almost never) intervenes. He also told me that I would never hear this from the pulpit as it would not be comprehensible to many, like trying to explain these concepts to my 5 yr old daughter.

I was then so surprised several days later when this same Bishop said from the pulpit that members who don’t pay full tithes will be burned at the second coming as covenant breakers/liars. At the time I was floored, but now I think I understand. Bishop was saying that God doesn’t intervene in this life and therefore the questions of whether your performance influences the degree and frequency of the interventions are irrelevant.

But that does not preclude God taking definitive action in the next life. In the next life Justice and Mercy Rule! God fulfills his stage 2 reciprocal side through justice and also fulfills the stage 3 loving parent side through mercy and the atonement. So the two ideas can be held simultaneously just that the blending of the two doesn’t do a very good job at explaining mortal experiences of fortune or misfortune in this life.

[Roy]

I really enjoyed the article. I have often said that Harry Reid does the LDS church a favor just by existing. If the only prominent Mormons were conservative Republicans then people could more easily assume that Glenn Beck speaks for all Mormons. At least now people may well ask, “What about Harry?” – “If Mormon politicians are merely puppets doing SLC’s bidding, how do you explain Harry?

But I also find that this argument is not always persuasive with all people. They might ask, “If the majority of LDS politicians are conservative Republicans and stand for truth and righteousness, what about Harry?” In reading this article I thought of a very vocal political minded woman in my ward. When I asked her if she thought Harry should be excommunicated she responded that he should be shot. I thought about sharing this article with her, but then I wonder if she would see in this description of Harry’s heterodox life further evidence that he is not with “an eye singled to the glory of God.”

I met Senator Reid once at the Law College at UNLV. After he spoke he opened it up to questions. One or two of the questions were quite pointed and specific. “What do you think about XYZ based upon the reading of ordinance ABC sub-section D?” His responses were impressive. I remember thinking that he couldn’t possibly be prepared for any question at any moment. Perhaps he just brought it around to his talking points or did some other politician trick, yet I’ve been a supporter of his ever since. :thumbup:

[Roy]

GBSmith wrote:

A person who is naturist or textile can have uncharitable feelings and opinions about others and their faith crises and have nothing to do with what they are or not wearing.

Hi GB, I believe the incredulity evident in my post sprung from my assumption that LDS persons with lifestyle choices that fit outside the traditional LDS mold would be more understanding of others that find themselves (sometimes unexpectedly) outside the mold.

I suppose when it comes down to it, that would be similar to saying that stay at home moms should be more sympathetic to the struggles of other stay at home moms or single moms or divorced moms. Thanks for helping me see the generalization. I wish I could say that I’m not going to do it in the future. Yet I tend to generalize even as I decry generalization. Hopefully I can at least be more aware of it. 💡 Like adding little mental asterisks that lead to footnotes that say, “may not apply in all cases.” 💡 I’m working on it.

[Roy]

I just have random commentary from some of these old postings.

SilentStruggle wrote:

Beer story is secondary; the real story is the naked ward sauna party!!

I did a Google search for StayLDS and found some comments on an LDS skinny dippers forum. Several of the comments were quite negative to the effect of why would anyone want to stay if they don’t believe anymore? The church is better off without them. Etc. I found it ironic that this is coming from a forum that supports indulging in chaste and tasteful nudity. Sooo….Faith crisis = bad but nudity = ok between consenting adults. Am I missing something here? Do I not understand the point of this (skinny dipping) forum?

Brian Johnston wrote:

My great grandmother from Utah did not understand that all Mormons abstained completely from alcohol. She wouldn’t believe it cause it wasn’t the way she was raised … in freaking hardcore polygamist Utah.

In Bryce Canyon a plaque quotes Brother Bryce’s comments about the canyon as “Hell of a place to lose a cow.” My park ranger BIL reported that a woman became very adamant that the plaque be changed because surely this devout Mormon pioneer wouldn’t have used the word hell. :wtf:

DA wrote:

This kind of anti-sin legislation also results in Utah losing a lot of business to border towns like Evanston, Wyoming and Wendover, Nevada.

I lived in Evanston as a child. My cousins saw a billboard that said “Color it fun, Evanston WY.” They asked their mother what it meant and were told it was an invitation/temptation to go up there and sin. 👿 After this was reported to me, I became somewhat bewildered. Evanston had never struck me as a particularly sinful place. I later figured it must have had something to do with the nearby Wyoming Downs racetrack.

MH wrote:

As far as tobacco, it does seem like the government could be taxing it to a point where it could become illegal in the future. I mean it is a proven cause of cancer. From a public health perspective, why are we allowing people to use a known carcinogen?

This probably could be a segway into a completely different topic concerning how much right the government has to restrict behavior it has determined undesirable. If a woman may terminate a pregnancy because she should have control over her own body, shouldn’t another person be able to smoke? With heroin and opium and crack and even alcohol you could justify that the use of these substances may directly or indirectly increase crime, but what do you say about cigarettes? BTW I don’t know the answer, just throwing out another perspective. :ugeek:

[Roy]

Incidentally, I went to Gospel Doctrine class and there was some conflict between the instructor and the Bishop’s wife about whether some Messianic prophesies referred just to Christ or also included John the Baptist. I left after the first exchange back in Isaiah 👿 but my wife later told me that it really got heated in John. 😈

(As an aside, I ended up helping in nursery until Priesthood. I don’t believe I am more sensitive to the spirit of contention than others, I just think I have less tolerance for narrowly defined and exclusive interpretations of scripture and/or doctrine. 😳 )

It was the general consensus that the Bishop’s wife was being disruptive and rude. In thinking about this incident and your situation I have wondered, Does a Sunday School teacher have the authority to ask a disruptive student to leave the class :

[Roy]

Heber13 wrote:

I think is done in jest…but makes me think also that sometimes it is easier for us to read things in the scriptures and see things as right and wrong about others (Zoramites were prideful) and maybe not realize how close those messages are to us

With very few exceptions, every time the spirit touches me I am inspired/motivated to change me. My “spirit” doesn’t tell me how wrong other prople are, My judgmental human nature doesn’t need any help with that. :shifty:

[Roy]

I remember reading somewhere about Judas and Cain being sons of perdition, and then I read (I think in Miracle of Forgiveness) that Judas could not be a full son of perdition as he did not enjoy the full Holy Ghost and that Cain is the only confirmed son of perdition. I also have read statements from early church leaders (JS?) that imply that all apostates from the church are sons of perdition.

These disparities were some of my earliest contact with differing information from church leaders past present and future. It didn’t bother me much as it surely had nothing to do with my salvation. :angel:

My family was into musicals like Godspell and Jesus Christ Superstar among others. I remember the Judas portrayed in Jesus Christ Superstar to be conflicted. “Why are we the prophets, why are we the one’s, who know the sad solution and what must be done?” I had always thought that Judas was trying to force a confrontation wherein Jesus would reveal his divine nature and subdue his (and Israel’s) enemies, that Jesus was giving him confusing and sometimes contradictory signals, and that Judas very much regretted the outcome.

But I remember also bringing up the possibility of Judas being misunderstood as a youth at an EFY meeting and I was told quite matter of factly that he was evil. 😈

[Roy]

I was in an institute class and the token older person (I believe there was a restriction to how many older people could attend) shared a powerful personal experience on this topic.

She told of how an Ensign article was dedicated to not waiting to have children. She got the mail first and decided to hide the Ensign in the attic because she knew her husband would want to follow the advice of the article and she didn’t feel ready.

Several days later her husband spontaneously cleaned the attic and was surprised to find the current issue of the Ensign up there. When she came home from her classes the Ensign was sitting on the table.

They talked it over and decided to move forward with having children. Several years and 2 children later a medical condition was discovered and the treatment of this condition rendered this sweet woman sterile. The moral of the story is that if they had waited, they would never have had children of their own.

This story was more powerful than anything the institute instructor could have said on the subject.

When my wife and I were still newlyweds I heard of some financial planning program that took your goals into account. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the program, but I remember asking my wife what she would want set up incase I were to die after a year. She didn’t mention life insurance, or savings, or being debt free. DW told me that she wanted to have my baby. {FWIW we were both college grads with good jobs}

I have relatives that take the “get married young and have lots of kids” fairly seriously and they have made decisions differently than I would have. But I cannot, in good conscience, say that their life would be happier if they had me as their life coach.

The doctrine of the church (as they understand it) provides meaning and even glory to the daily tasks of caring for children.

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I actually think many if not the majority of them are still basically in denial or ignorant of many of these issues.

Perhaps for them (my relatives) and others like them to be “in denial or ignorant” truly is bliss. :thumbup:

[Roy]

This was perhaps the most dangerous and hated element of early Mormonism. That of community building, the combination of church and state, block voting, and overwhelming immigration.

R. Bushman makes mention of this in referencing the grand vision of Zion where over every door is read “Holiness to the Lord.” He asks, (paraphrase)”what of those that don’t want “Holiness to the Lord” emblazoned across their doorsteps?”

Perhaps Joseph was emulating the political system of heaven but it didn’t seem to translate well to a fallen world. I believe the church has distanced itself from such activities… :think: …at least until after the millennium.

[Roy]

Butters wrote:

But I am scared. If I don’t pay the last few hundred in tithing does that mean my check book is going to be screwed up and I will bounce crap all over the place? Will the Lord be upset with me?

This is the difference between Santa and Jesus. Santa checks his list and marks it twice to see if you are naughty or nice, Jesus KNOWS that YOU ARE GOOD. :angel:

SilentDawning wrote:

Learning to love yourself in spite of what the world does to you is part of keeping this “second estate” of our earthly existence it seems….

I sometime revel in uncondidional love assisted by inspired music. I had always imagined God the Father to be speaking in this first one.

I love you more than the sun

And the stars that I taught how to shine

You are mine, and you shine for me too

I love you yesterday and today

And tomorrow, I’ll say it again and again

I love you more

Just a face in the city

Just a tear on a crowded street

But you are one in a million

And you belong to Me

And I want you to know

That I’m not letting go

Even when you come undone

“More” by Mathew West

In this final song I imagine Jesus Christ to be speaking:

I Know your hunger, Know your pain,

I’ve seen your sacrifice for my name

I’ve seen your sorrow for the choices you’ve made

But I feel your broken heart and I see,

The light in your eyes, in your life, in your soul.

So search your heart, you’ll find me there

I’ve heard your anguish, and every prayer

My love for you, will never end-

You’re still my servant, still my friend

Still my servant, still my friend.

“Still My Servant, Still My Friend” By Brett Raymond

Tom wrote:

You don’t have to prove yourself to the Lord. You don’t have to prove yourself to yourself, and you don’t have to prove yourself to the great heavenly throng. You are free to find and follow the great plan of happiness, wherever and whatever that may be. You and God are on the same team (says Brian).

Your decision to pay or not will not change how He feels about you.

[Author]

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