[Roy]

Thank you, Tom for reviewing this book.

“The Shack” is an easy, thought provoking, read.

I was given a copy of “The Shack” while trying to come to grips with the assumptive world collapse that was triggered by the stillbirth of my daughter, Emory. I think my fledgling assumptive world is less filled with guilt in part because of this book.

In the past the Trinity had been a disqualifier for me. Whatever any other church had, they were wrong about the Trinity, and if they were wrong about the nature of God they could be wrong about anything. At first I had a similar reaction to the Trinitarian viewpoint presented in this book. But over time it started to grow on me and I could look past the differences to glean some precious truths that were needful for me at that time.

I am reminded of a Sunstone Article about Heavenly Mother. The article concluded that the lack of clarity about Her allows Heavenly Mother to take whatever form that might be most helpful in the mind of the individual. Perhaps the Trinity, as it is presented in The Shack, has more flexibility to suite the needs of the individual than the Body of flesh and Bones, Perfected Man, Godhead that I am more familiar with.

I suppose my only complaint (and this might not be a big deal to others), is how God played such a crucial role in the discovery of the girl’s body and the eventual arrest of the perpetrator. I felt like if God could intervene at that point, then why not earlier when the little girl’s life might have been spared or perhaps spared any other little girls that might have been victimized during the past year.

I think that the author did that to show that the main character’s “shack” experience was more than just a dream, more than just something of personal significance for him, but a miraculous experience that allowed him to know things that couldn’t have been known otherwise. For me this became a distraction from the better miracle – that miracle of forgiveness and letting go, the miracle of seeing beyond our own pain to meaningfully touch the lives of others. I would have been happier if the book had ended on this note, without the nice little “case closed” package that was also included.

[Roy]

Let me begin by saying how glad I am to have found such a welcome community.

Last Sunday over the pulpit in my ward was read a letter urging members not to write to church headquarters. The statement said all letters from membership would be returned to your stake president. I’m glad I resisted the urge to write just such a letter regarding the policy of sealings for stillborn children. I’m not sure what good it would do to make an issue with my S.P. and judging from some of the experiences had by participants here it could actually do some harm.

I see hardship in the lives of others, some happening in the lives of people who seem to be so much saintlier than I. I find it unhelpful to mentally compare hardships in that it can sometimes lead to minimizing the adversity of others. How can I know how an event is impacting the personal journey of another? Perhaps a bad brake-up really does seem like the end of the world for a young teenager. I guess, I seek to share perspective without minimizing their perspective. I know there are many with varying degrees of adversity here and I very much admire the predominantly positive approaches that you have put forward.

Over the last year since Emory died I have endeavoured to rebuild my assumptive world. My current framework is not more correct than anyone else’s but it is mine and it allows me to reclaim some of the structure that I need.

My current view is that most of the particulars in this life are left to chance. God restrains himself (for the most part) from pre-determining, interference, intervention, or altering events as they would otherwise occur in the natural order of things and heavily influenced by random chance. Perhaps as in the “Good News according to Tom,” the randomness and unchartedness of a stint in this world is a necessary part of glorifying heaven. (I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth Tom)

Similar to what Silent Dawning has said, “I believe God often stands back and lets people goof up, tragedies happen etcetera because its the best outcome eventually when you consider variables like free agency, permanent learning and character change, as well as my belief in fairness and a making right of wrongs in the next life… Now, do I know this for sure? Nope, but I’m comfortable with that belief.”

The physical world is ordered and chaotic all at once. It is beautiful, but not obviously meaningful- there is a mystery about it.

The God I’m coming to know is a God of Understanding, commiseration, love, and ultimately hope and inspiration. From a God who alters reality to a God who is a good listener and plants the seeds of inspiration in my soul. Much like my dear earthly parents, He gives me a metaphorical refuge where I can retreat and regroup at times before foraging out into the unknown.

Like in the quote Brian had shared, “There is a place in you where you have never been wounded, where there’s a seamlessness in you, and where there is a confidence and tranquillity in you, and I think the intention of prayer and spirituality and love is now and again to visit that inner kind of sanctuary.”

-Poet & Philosopher John O’Donohue, Interview with Krista Tippett on Speaking of Faith, “Inner Landscape of Beauty” Feb 8, 2008

My relationship with God is about accessing that place. He is with me always in that His love and concern for me is constant. (This is in contrast to my previous understanding wherein constant companionship was akin to a protective shield, a divine spidey-sense, or a good luck charm)

My life, like the physical world, is ordered and chaotic, beautiful- but not obviously meaningful.

In pondering life’s meaning, I think of Emory. What is the meaning of a life lived inside the womb. I like to think that she was comfortable, warm, and surrounded with love. I don’t believe she felt increasingly unwell as all her tests never picked up any signs of distress. I believe that whatever took her was sudden and unexpected. Was it the constricted chest of an acute coronary? Was it somehow akin to gasping for breath, or was it peaceful like falling asleep? Did she fulfil the measure of her creation? Was the measure of her creation self contained to her brief mortal sojourn or does it continue in how her life impacted others? What part might I play in its fulfillment?

I continue to feel after meaning, stepping at times into the dark. As I move forward collecting meaning, I am intrigued at the different meanings that others have. Life truly is a techni-colored rainbow. Not all meaning is right for me. Perhaps not all meaning resonates with my unique soul and satiates my core. I feel after the meaning that speaks to me and I find bits and pieces amongst the others. Because of this, my meaning is always somewhat in a state of flux, growing and changing as I collect pieces of the rainbow and internalize it. At times old meanings no longer provide what they once did. Sometimes they can be retooled or retrofit to serve differently, sometimes not.

I believe right now I find my meaning in the quest for meaning. Is this a paradox :

[Roy]

Hi Observant,

I wanted to thank you for welcoming me to the group and thought I might return the favor.

So here is a big retroactive welcome

While I was here, I ran across this little gem:

SilentDawning wrote:

For me, believing in the atonement has a good impact on my life. And that’s why I CHOOSE to believe it, even though I may find out salvation comes by other means in the next life. In fact, that’s my testimony, and it’s independent of any spiritual experiences or otherwise. The atonement is good to believe because it helps me do good….

I have been pondering various meaning of the word “true.” If a true principle can mean “good” principle and the goodness of the princple can be measured based upon the positive effect that belief in this principle has for its adherants, it all seems to point back to the same conclusion- that truth (or at least this understanding of it) is subjective.

I also enjoyed the discussion on the “Just World Hypothesis.” It made me think about the base assumptions that make up my assumptive world (to a greater or lesser degree)-1) The world is good, 2) Life and the World have meaning, and 3) I am a worthy person. I don’t know much about psychology, but I wonder how the two might be interelated.

Again- Welcome Observant.

[Roy]

Bridget-

Your experience was very profound for me. In reference to the Robert Bly quote from your introduction: “It says that where a man’s wound is, that is where his genius will be. Wherever the wound appears in our psyches….that is precisely the place from which we will give our major gift to the community.” I would like to add that not all wounds develop into gifts, some fester.

In learning something of your own “Hero’s Journey,” I am impressed at what a harrowingly beautiful path you have walked. I truly admire the person you are and how you have used your gift to help others.

bridget_night wrote:

“A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. All God wanted me to be concerned about was overcoming my sins.”

When I read your post and came to the end where it said “overcoming my sins,” it was like there was an echo. Perhaps as Brian said:

Brian Johnston wrote:

“It just doesn’t seem like God is in the business of orchestrating a happy life for everyone on the planet.”

But maybe God is still in the business of healing battered and broken souls.

Bridget, on your introduction you used slightly different wording for the last sentence. You wrote- “I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me.”

This leads me to the following question: What forms of approaching “overcoming sins”/”Being saved from sins?” have been helpful for the participants here?

[Roy]

Good morning and thank you all for the support you have shared,

About the sealing ordinance not being performed for stillborn children-

I am still working on separating the “inspired opinion” from official doctrine as this is a new way of looking at things for me. From the perspective of the STAYLDS.com article on church doctrine, official doctrine is found in the standard works. The doctrine in the standard works is clear that little children have eternal life. There are many who have expressed inspired opinion as to who might qualify as a little child and what exactly is meant by the “eternal life” being promised. But sometimes we don’t get to know all the details. Perhaps the verse that speaks to me the best in regard to the state of our little ones is found in Isaiah 40:11- “He shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom.”

I have also found great peace in something that Pinkpatient said: “The real sealing power lies within our hearts.” This has helped me suppress the urge to write to church headquarters petitioning a policy change just for me.

I agree with you about the “internal locus of control.” I used to have a motivational poster framed in my office that said: “Destiny- It’s not a matter of chance but rather of choice.” That pretty much summed it up for me.

SilentDawning wrote:

I was that way at one time, but have adopted a more external “locus of control” which says that sometimes bad things just happen — and they would happen whether I was there or not.

Cadence wrote:

I realized that sometime bad things just happen. Does not matter whether you are good or bad things just happen. It was a hard pill to swallow but as I thought about it more it brought comfort. I no longer had to try and find meaning in every event in my life. From now on I only need to focus on the best course of action for each event and deal with the consequences the best I can. Taking the metaphysical out of most things in my life has actually been a great relief.

Shifting that locus of control for me has been a major challenge of the last year.

In reading the book “The Shack,” I came across a passage that I transplanted almost entirely into my own notes. I wrote-

“Agency is not unencumbered. There are many trammels: genetic heritage, DNA, metabolism, birth order, personality, events in formative years, social influences, indoctrination, habits formed into synaptic bonds in the brain, addictions, circumstances nationally, politically, economically, in addition to advertising, propaganda, paradigms and many other inhibitors.”

And this doesn’t begin to describe my limitations in controlling events and people outside myself. But in accepting that loss of control it also opens a Pandora’s Box into a frightening world of uncertainty.

SilentDawning wrote:

Also, that part of life is learning to be at peace and happy when everything is crumbling around you.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what has worked for you to help “be at peace and happy when everything is crumbling around you?” I’m afraid I don’t know where to begin.

[Roy]

I would like to thank everyone for their kind responses.

In coping with my grief ramifications I have read a lot, have written some, and have talked a lot.

In reading, I have been seeking “The Answer.” When I read “Believing Christ” I was floored with “The Answer.” “Wow, of course God doesn’t expect me to be a savior for those dearest to me- He loves me in my weakness and accepts my offering as long as my heart is in the right place. Why didn’t I know this before?”

In attempting to answer some questions by a very sweet and sincere missionary as to how I could believe in “easy grace,” I looked up some of the relevant scripture verses in my institute manuals. I found that the interpretation and emphasis given these verses in the institute manual are not the same as that given in “Believing Christ.”

What I have found in my searching is a breadth of answers from lay-members to General Authorities. I have been intrigued in pondering what these answers mean for those individuals and what makes them resonate for them. I have also found that we, as LDS, are not so different in this regard as people of other faiths, each seeking answers that add meaning for them.

I loved how Brian described this thought:

Brian Johnston wrote:

“My experience of transition has been to see how my faith changes the way I deal with the world. While before thinking that God will reward or punish me for obedience and zeal, I find that my faith helps me to experience the beauty and blessings of a human experience as they are. It’s easier said than done, but that is what I am working on.”

Thank you for sharing that.

In writing, I have attempted to gather some semblance of order to the jumbled pulsating mass that my life was once built upon. Even now, in writing here, you are acting as a sounding board for my thoughts. I have co-opted you to become part of the rebuilding process. 😈

In talking, I have been very blessed with a very supportive family. Even if they have some misgivings about my emerging non-traditional perspective they have given me unqualified love and support in a time when I have been very vulnerable. I very much needed a kind and listening ear both from earthly family and from Heavenly Parents. I believe, I have received this on both counts.

[Roy]

Welcome Molly,

I wanted communicate some of my thoughts to you – in addition to the support and advice you have already received.

I want to support the recommendation of the book “Believing Christ.” I found this book after a family tragedy that I felt much guilt about. In working out my feelings with prayer and pondering I felt love and acceptance from God. This seemed incongruent with what I had understood of church doctrine – that I was only “worthy” as long as I endured to the end or as I had always thought of it, “hold it together till the end.” So anyway, I had failed to hold it together and the Holy Spirit was helping me understand that God accepts my imperfect, broken, and contrite heart. Now enter the book “Believing Christ”. It helped me to see that God’s promises to his struggling disciples are at the core of the Good News of the gospel and are found throughout scripture (even if not always emphasised).

SilentDawning wrote:

Learning to love yourself in spite of what the world does to you is part of keeping this “second estate” of our earthly existence it seems….

I loved how SilentDawning expressed this thought.

I have also found the whisperings of the spirit in good music. In writing to you, excerpts of two songs come to mind. I had always imagined God the Father to be speaking in this first one.

I love you more than the sun

And the stars that I taught how to shine

You are mine, and you shine for me too

I love you yesterday and today

And tomorrow, I’ll say it again and again

I love you more

Just a face in the city

Just a tear on a crowded street

But you are one in a million

And you belong to Me

And I want you to know

That I’m not letting go

Even when you come undone

“More” by Mathew West

In this final song I imagine Jesus Christ to be speaking:

I Know your hunger, Know your pain,

I’ve seen your sacrifice for my name

I’ve seen your sorrow for the choices you’ve made

But I feel your broken heart and I see,

The light in your eyes, in your life, in your soul.

So search your heart, you’ll find me there

I’ve heard your anguish, and every prayer

My love for you, will never end-

You’re still my servant, still my friend

Still my servant, still my friend.

“Still My Servant, Still My Friend” By Brett Raymond

Thank you for sharing your journey, you are not alone.

[Author]

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