[Rqatkins]

Roy wrote:

I think that there is a benefit to the believe that this life is a test or personalized educational curriculum designed to bring about the best possible learning experience. Sometimes people get truly raw deals in life and this belief can give them a sense of hope and purpose through it all (check out my signature lines).

The downside of this belief is that we can be dismissive and unsympathetic when someone goes through an awful experience….

The gospel (meaning here, the system and teachings of the church) can work wonderfully. However, we tend to treat it like a one size fits all solution/panacea and if it isn’t working for you then you must be doing it wrong.

This is a beautiful thread, with great insights I agree with completely. Often what is taught at church teaches in generalities. In many cases, expanding our lense and seeing that bigger picture, “Think Celestial” mindset is very helpful, it can bring peace and often let go of minor troubles or concerns that fill our daily life.

But there is only 1, “one size fits all” answer we learn from the gospel…that Christ loves us and at times he may be the only one that fully understands our trial.

Most other lessons or advice, I believe we can take it as general instruction…sit back and see “does this apply to my situation” and if it does that can help. If it doesn’t apply to that very specific instance, it’s not the answer that applies.

Christ descended below all things, suffered an infinite cost of pain, affliction, sickness, emotional stress, fatigue…every imaginable human trial. He experienced it. He paid that price….what did he buy with that infinite atonement, that cost???

Infinite Grace.

There is no end to his love, his understanding, the strength and comfort he can provide.

He earned that right.

I fully believe he stands at that door knocking to provide. We ask and he’s there. I feel that is also why we can pray for others and unlock those blessings in their behalf. Why we receive and feel blessings when often we don’t see how or why we should receive them. Our prayers in supplication, and the prayers of others have power.

I don’t know why there is cancer in life. There isn’t a cookie cutter answer. I think it’s wrong for anyone to assume an answer for someone else’s trials. But Christ knows.

He is the source of truth, and knows each of us individually.

The answers are with and through him.

[Rqatkins]

Nibbler- I’m glad you caught that and brought it up.

I was actually thinking that as I posted it, but didn’t take time to clarify since it was in 2 different posts.

In my opinion, if what a current GA is teaching or speaking about directly changes policy or the church’s direction on the matter…

Then we’d be accountable to the present information as revelation for our current day, our lives, society and culture.

However, for example, If they just stop talking about 1 year food storage so much, that doesn’t mean the principle is gone or should be ignored.

If a current GA said 6 months food storage is recommended, then that would invalidate previous direction regarding it. That would be instruction for for members during that time up until the policy change.

Then we have a new precedent going forward.

So How can we know if something has changed vs just not being an emphasis anymore?

Luckily we have a “living” handbook and guidelines for church policy. Each month as Bishop I get an email of what changes have been implemented.

The handbook is accessible to everyone.

And as members it’s our right and responsibilty to be aware of what our leaders are teaching and sustain them. Listening to conference 2x a year and re-reading or listening to talks is just as vital as scripture study.

We have current/modern prophets for a reason. Times change, people change, culture changes.

I feel what Heavenly father needs a past generation to have learned was taught appropriately. When the next generation comes, there is a different way to present it to best learn from.

[Rqatkins]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/a-look-at-president-russell-m-nelsons-5-year-prophetic-ministry#:~:text=He%2520changed%2520a%2520Church%2520policy,settlement%E2%80%9D%2520with%2520%E2%80%9Ctithing%2520declaration%E2%80%9D” class=”bbcode_url”>https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/a-look-at-president-russell-m-nelsons-5-year-prophetic-ministry#:~:text=He%2520changed%2520a%2520Church%2520policy,settlement%E2%80%9D%2520with%2520%E2%80%9Ctithing%2520declaration%E2%80%9D

“Through the Church’s council system and with the full support of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, he has also enacted multiple policy changes within the Church.

Under his leadership,

-Latter-day Saint leaders replaced home and visiting teaching with ministering,

– adjusted the Sunday meetings schedule to accommodate home-centered,

-Church-supported gospel study and asked members to use the full and correct name of the Church.

– He changed a Church policy, allowing the children of parents who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender to be blessed as infants and baptized;

– discontinued a policy requiring couples who marry civilly to wait one year before being sealed in the temple;

-replaced “tithing settlement” with “tithing declaration”;

– and established a policy allowing women to serve as witnesses of temple sealings and women, youth and children to serve as witnesses for baptismal ordinances.

“One of the things the Spirit has repeatedly impressed upon my mind since my new calling as President of the Church is how willing the Lord is to reveal His mind and will,” said President Nelson during the Church’s April 2018 general conference.”

“As leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Nelson has announced 118 new temples — bringing the total number of announced, dedicated or under-construction temples to 300.”

More have been announced since this article…

[Rqatkins]

AmyJ wrote:

NOTE: I am glad that he put my faith transition in such a common ground way because that means that he sees it that way (finally). I am uneasy about “church activities 2024” because people might remember what he said and judge me if I was to show up. I “show up” with my boundaries where I decide to do so – so I can totally do the work to show up in those activities if I decide to do so – it’s just a tad more daunting.

There are a lot of victories in those statements though.

Amy, this is a great post with a lot to learn from your experiences! Thanks for sharing. ❤️

Your comment about being uneasy because people might remember what was said, then also being worried someone would judge you for being there…

Honestly, that would seriously surprise me if that happened or someone responds in a judgmental way. I think we often project what others “might” think or say. We create a false narrative of their response or judgements without giving them or yourself the benefit of the doubt. This can build unnecessary anxieties.

However, I hear this a lot. It’s a valid feeling, because at some point you have felt judged in the past or you wouldn’t feel this apprehension. Just like everyone in the world, LDS members are no different. We are all imperfect. 😅

We’ve had members say judgy things, or have that attitude that offends.

All I can say is it’s wonderful to see people attend and be involved, no matter their background or levels of faith and testimony. I’m rarely of ever concerned about their past, I’m just happy they are there and want to support them.

[Rqatkins]

Roy wrote:

Rqatkins wrote:

I know, without doubt I received revalation on who should speak and the topics. I’m also regularly asking Ward Council advice for that as well.

There is precedent for decisions made through church committees to be considered revelation.

Typically, yes. We don’t move forward on things unless we’ve prayed about it and it feels right. Often speaking to the ward council, organization leader or members that it would affect.

I hope all committees strive for this process and outcome.

[Rqatkins]

Roy wrote:

I think that many families provide different reflections of church culture within their homes.

In my own family, we would never dream to push anyone to have kids or not.

I am very happy that the modern church of today does not push having large families or stay at home moms quite as forcefully as they have in the past.

I completely agree, 100%

Stuff like this isn’t in scripture. A GA, or relatively modern prophet might give direction, but like the Proclamation to the family clearly states, it depends on your families needs.

That’s when we rely on the spirit to guide us personally. Especially when there are medical reasons involved. Leaders of the church have to teach and direct guidance to the vast majority. When your life situation is an exception, that’s fine. That just means the generalized statement wasn’t meant for you.

Unfortunately there are many who still adhere to policy, guidance and conference talks directed at members 40 years ago and feel it should apply today. But our current GA’s aren’t saying that anymore.

I could never imagine telling or suggesting to someone else how many kids they should have or when to start. 💁😅

[Rqatkins]

That’s a good question, many of the questions in a temple interview start with “strive”. Do you strive to be honest in all you do?

The idea is that no one is perfect, but the temple is a place we should be. Are we trying to be better in our daily lives and striving to be obedient. Attending the temple is in itself a sanctifying experience.

These questions cover many of the small infractions we do and hopefully we are trying to repent each day to improve.

Other questions are more definitive. Are you supporting or promoting opposition to the church? Do you obey the law of chastity?

Again these along with Tithing and WoW are more directly tied to the higher covenants we make.

How can we devote our time, talents and efforts along with all we have to the kingdom of God, if we promote opposition, if we can’t give 10% of all he’s given us, if we can’t be obedient in the specific things he’s asked us to do like the WoW.

Obedience, Sacrifice, law of the gospel, Consecration and Chastity. Each of these covenants are vital to our growth.

If you question or nit pick details about the interview questions, are you ready to commit to all the above?

Probably not, or you’d have a testimony of and be willing to pay tithing. You’d see the benefits of avoiding the things mentioned in the WoW and not make exceptions or excuses.

As I said before, that’s ok. It’s a process, you are on your schedule with the Lord. A lot of people may think the recommend is too strict or upset they aren’t allowed in the temple, but it is the standard given to us to live up to.

Ultimately the real question is are we willing to? Either you are or you’re not.

If being in the Temple is something you desire, but have a concern about any of the recommend questions, it’s good to talk with your Bishop. Be upfront and honest about those concerns.

Sometimes it’s a simple misunderstanding, sometimes I suggest someone definitely go to the temple when They feel they are unworthy! Often we are too hard on ourselves.

Your Bishop is there to help you be recommend worthy and attend whenever you can. They’re not meant to be a gatekeeper and hold people back.

[Rqatkins]

I’m very much like Amy! I could really relate to that post.

I from a convert family, 9 children born in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.

I think my mom just loved having kids. It was preached and encouraged from Gen. Authorities of the time, but I don’t think they took it as a commandment. We were and active church family.

Of the 9, 4 are still active members. But I know all of us still have a testimony of God and Christ.

Of those that aren’t attending the LDS church, they aren’t going to another church. Which is also interesting.

I have 2 teenage kids, I never felt pressure or was told to have more and if I was I would’ve ignored it. My wife and I both felt when we were ready, God would tell us or make it happen, but we were on birth control for 6 years before we felt it was right. After our 2nd we knew we were done.

My parents now have 30 grandchildren, and 5 great grandchildren.

My grandfather once talked to my dad after I was born (I’m 5th born in ‘79) that there was a concern of overpopulation and he didn’t have the finances to support a large family.

I think genuine concerns for his son.

My Dad responded, if I raise them to be valuable and productive citizens… should we have less good people in the world?

My grandpa didn’t have a rebutle to that.

I was raised in the church with values and standards that blessed my life. My father taught us to be good citizens.

Our children are being taught the same.

I don’t see the problem with it.

[Rqatkins]

Minyan Man wrote:

Rqatkins, I am very diplomatic when it comes to gospel topics & personal relations in my ward. We have been in the same

ward for over 50 years. We are known within the Stake as well. I have volunteered to give talks about the topics I haven’t

heard in a while. I our ward, talks are assigned based on GC talks. There is very little latitude to go off the topic assigned.

Also, my calling in the ward is Family History. I love doing the work & I get inspiration from doing it. I would love to pass it

on. In the past 5+ yrs, I can’t remember a talk in Sacrament meeting, priesthood or Sunday school that focused on FH.

I’ve talked to the Bishop, his Counselors & Elders Quorum presidency with no response. That’s fine. It’s their call.

It is frustrating sometimes.

Bishop, I understand what you’re saying.

Minyan Man- I can see why that would be frustrating. Personally I would welcome any topic suggestions and especially offers to speak !!!

If I were to assign that topic, it would be how FH work has affected your life and how it brings you (and your family) closer to Christ.

Every topic in sacrament should be an aspect of the gospel, and then how it applies to our Savior.

When I give a GC talk in association with a topic, I’m only asking that member to consider is as a reference. Maybe a quote, a story or just background inspiration for the message the spirit directs you to share.

I never want a member to just recite that talk, or not feel free to deviate from it.

I know, without doubt I received revalation on who should speak and the topics. I’m also regularly asking Ward Council advice for that as well.

If a member mentioned to them topics they wanted to hear or volunteered to speak they’d be slotted in right away.

[Rqatkins]

Roy wrote:

I observe that a lack of humility is one of the cardinal sins for a member to have concerning church/ward leadership. For this reason, my efforts to stayLDS have included presenting myself as struggling with my faith and testimony. I am a work in progress and growing and changing. I honor and respect the church leadership in their roles and accept that they have some level of authority and stewardship over me.

Roy- Thanks for the welcome! Im not sure how I came across StayLDS. I believe I was searching something online, and this forum came up as an answer to that topic/question.

Your response helps me better understand the purpose of this forum, which is wonderful.

I think too often concerns remain unsaid in church or aren’t brought up to RS, Eq or Bishopric leaders.

Then those concerns grow or deepen before they can be addressed.

This is a great opportunity to share thoughts, insights and concerns. So hopefully everyone can get inspired answers but also recognize they aren’t alone in what they have questions about.

For leadership, I can only speak for myself. I think it’s smart and healthy to recognize Bishops are human. While I have a stewardship for my ward, as a Shepard for a flock I am accountable.

I’ve served as a councilor in a Bishopric 3 times, and now as Bishop for over 3 years.

I can definitely say, there is a different feeling and access to inspiration and revelation as Bishop than ever before in any other calling in leadership.

That doesn’t mean I’m always right or that I’m the most knowledgeable in the gospel.

It is for every member to seek guidance from the spirit, from the Bishop when necessary, but also follow up that guidance with personal prayer and revelation as a confirmation of truth.

Anyone can be and is most likely prideful to some extent. Members and Bishops alike. It’s important be forgiving and understanding going both ways.

You mentioned excommunication, that is a very serious matter. In my experience it was applied more often and in a more strict manner in the past. I agree that a lack of humility is often what progresses that process further. If someone has sinned to the extent excommunication is considered, they are either repentant or not. If they are not being humble enough to repent, it’s not giving that membership council much choice. Also it’s not in the Bishops hands anymore. That decision is now solely the Stake presidencies decision.

There’s not a lot of thorough understanding in the church for what would constitute excommunication and that word is used too frivolously or incorrectly. It’s all in the handbook, members all have full access to that book through LDS library.

You can read all the procedures and guidelines we follow. Then we apply it all as best we can through prayer and a guidance of the spirit.

I’ve heard plenty of stories about Bishops who didn’t listen, who withheld support, gave poor advice, were too strict, or judged too harshly. That is all probably true to a certain extent.

I’ve also experienced and sat in Stake-Bishops council, almost as our own support group of Bishops, where we hear about experiences of members judging us, yelling, cursing us out, not listening to advice given as their life is falling apart, welfare funds withheld because a member won’t act to support themselves or fulfill requirements given before assstance can be shared… All of this happens as well.

If I’ve learned anything as Bishop, there are 3 sides to every story. Each person’s point of view, then what really happened, as Heavenly Father sees it. As someone shares their experience it’s typically relayed to express their point of view and usually justify their behavior.

My goal as Bishop is to align my Will and insight as closely to God’s as possible. Seeing others as he sees them.

Showing love and compassion first. Ultimately my job is to bring everyone to Christ. Make sure it’s clear he is the core of this church, its doctrine being taught and to share his love.

[Rqatkins]

Myron wrote:

I’ve definitely noticed the same thing. Food storage used to be such a big topic, and family home evening felt like it was more emphasized in the past. It seems like those things aren’t as heavily pushed anymore, maybe because of how life has changed or just shifting priorities. I remember “every member a missionary” was a big focus for a while, but now it doesn’t seem as prominent—it’s almost like it’s become more of an expectation than something we actively teach about. It’s kind of interesting how certain practices fade out, but I think it’s just how things evolve over time.

This has been mentioned a number of times.

Just my 2 cents, Elder Bernard mentioned in a recent conference talk that just because we don’t focus talks and instruction on food storage doesn’t mean the principle has gone away.

So the principle never fades, just focus might based on what the membership needs to learn at that time.

If it’s been taught before, we’re accountable to it.

Should we do some kind of Family Home Evening or family scripture study/devotional…YES!

Just because it isn’t called that anymore, or the structure has changed doesn’t mean the principle goes away.

Like every topic mentioned in this thread (not just the one I quoted), if a topic isn’t being mentioned, and you want it to be….ask to give a talk!

Be an active participant! Bring it up. Go to sacrament, give suggestions to you Bishop and Ward Council,

Go to 2nd hour and participate in discussion.

So many members just sit back passively and wait to be instructed. Then judge when something isn’t discussed.

Being an “active” member isn’t just attending.

You have to be active in your participation, instigate and perpetuate your OWN learning and application!

I understand where this thread is coming from, but every ward is nuanced. Every bishop or leader is individual and will have certain priorities for their ward.

What will never change is YOUR responsibility to learn, grow, and apply. Then share what you have learned,

[Rqatkins]

SilentDawning wrote:

They are probably judgmental toward you. Such is the trend among very orthodox members — myself included when I was committed.

I got a feel for how the leadership views me when a former home teacher of mine came over to see me. He is a very loving person, and he told me he wasn’t pleased about what the leadership would say about me in their leadership meetings. I pressed him to tell me what they said, but he clammed up, so I never knew. But it was probably negative about how I’m a High Priest and am not committed.

I was very judgmental when I was fully committed. Judgmental toward people who wouldn’t make sacrifices to do their calling or didn’t function when called. Sometimes even negative when they refused a calling. I was very hard hearted toward the poor at certain times as well. There was one sister that comes to mind who, in my view, was not the fastest bunny in the hutch. She was self-sufficient financially until something unusual would happen (car repairs, medical bills) and would then go the church for financial assistance. I remember sitting in a meeting with her and the Bishop after I did a needs analysis and listening to her go through, line by line, everything we thought she could do to be more self-reliant. She had a reason why she couldn’t embrace each suggestion we had. You said I should do this, but I can’t do that for this reasons, You said I should do this other thing, and I can’t do that for this reason, etcetera. It was a rapid fire rebuttal of everything we suggested that she do — such as move closer to her work so she could walk, and then go down to one car.

Eventually a new Bishop cut her off, and so she moved into a different Ward.

Anyway, I get sidetracked. Bottom line, I felt it was her own fault she was poor — and recently read that is precisely the way we should NOT think about the poor. It’s as if God knows that the poor are often poor due to their own outlook on life, and doesn’t judge them for it.

If I ever get active again, and am in leadership, I will be a MUCH less judgmental and kind-hearted person. I will have low expectations for the behavior of others and the overall success of the church in terms of metrics (% of TR holders wth current TR’s, activity rates, prospective elders, ministering statistics). For years, all that stole my inner peace — no longer.

As a Bishop myself, I appreciate this thread overall. Love should always come first. Obedience is a learned byproduct of testimony building and our reason to be here on earth. We all go at our own pace.

When we are fully committed to Striving to be obedient, then we progress. I reserve judgement in all things based on that individual. We have guidelines to follow, to set a standard (which are there for a reason) but there is flexibility more and more in the church to understand and follow the spirit of the law while striving for obedience.

In questions of welfare, I can see why the bishop you mentioned stopped giving or refused assistance. Her reaction and lack of humility, based on your description, helps me understand the “why” of that bishops choice. Her moving wards after also shows a level of pride and unwillingness to accept the decision.

Fast offerings are church members donations from the local area (Ward and Stake) and should be used with inspired discretion. It is not a “right” to receive assistance just because you ask. Many considerations need to be taken before financial assistance is given out.

When a member is humble, when they have no other way out and when it is temporary…then finances are used.

Without more nuanced info, I can’t personally say what should have been done.

In regards to financial assistance that members willingness to listen pays a major part.

[Rqatkins]

I’m a Bishop in Georgia, I’m not a GA, so only take my words as far as I interpret the commandment. I’m not speaking for the whole church, but as a “Judge in Israel” I’m duty bound to judge and uphold the commandments as we’ve been instructed.

The WoW is a law of obedience. There are health benefits and there’s a lot of discussion here and through membership going over minute exceptions or distinctions as to what qualifies or why.

That’s fine to do as you try to better understand the commandment.

Does instruction change over time? Yes, when modern revelation is instructed and it comes from the Prophet.

For example, in the article shared earlier WoW was less emphasized…but agreement to plural wives was a HUGE aspect.

That’s obviously changed in both aspects, and both have come from modern revelation. So you can look toward history for guidance for our current day, but only so far as when principles have changed for our time.

The principle of WoW is a healthier lifestyle, and our willingness to obey. Whether we know the reason or not.

In the Temple we covenant to the Law of Obedience and the Law of Sacrifice…

Tithing and the WoW prepare us for both higher level covenants, if you can’t or won’t adhere to these principles, we’d be doing you a disservice to send you to the temple to covenant and then be accountable to these higher laws.

Until then, we all work on our own schedule with our savior understanding how this applies to you, and what you can accept and obey.

In the “Spirit of the Law” simple do not take/eat/drink anything that you would be or are addicted to or harmful to your body unless medically prescribed.

The “Letter of the Law” has some things specifically listed as a guide.

Ultimately Jesus Christ directs this church. The WoW is just one minor aspect of it, but it prepares us mind and body for higher level covenants that will lead us to him and our Heavenly Father eternally.

Now it’s our choice with agency to follow and receive those blessings, or reject them find some excuse or reason we are the exception.

As I said, we are each on our own schedule to understanding this and other principles of the gospel. Some have no problem with this. Others, it’s a major life struggle and it’s not for us as brothers and sisters to judge.

Everyone has their struggle/challenge to overcome. Some more visible than others, but no less of an obstacle.

They all provide us an opportunity to rely on Christ’s grace to overcome and learn from that growth and experience.

We don’t need to nit pick, judge others or choose what parts of the gospel apply to us or others. That was the way of the Pharisee’s.

We need to learn the gospel, follow the doctrine of Christ, and rely on him for our growth and salvation. That’s why we are here. To learn this process.

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