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DarkJedi wrote:
I agree the God (perfect) Jesus and the human (imperfect?) Jesus are one of the many paradoxes in Mormonism and to some extent Christianity in general. There are Christians and some Mormons who see Jesus as fully God and fully human simultaneously. My own view is pretty close to that, I’m just not completely sure about the God part.
What we really need to understand is what “perfect” entails here. When it comes to morality, I believe that perfection is loving God with all your heart, or, in other words, having your priorities in the right place. One can have all their priorities in the right place and still suffer pain, hunger and disease.
On Own Now wrote:
Was justice served by murdering every last adult, teen, and child the age of today’s first-graders on up under the guise of protection? No. It sickens me to think about it.
No one is proud of it. It is a shameful event in LDS history. However, eight was the cut-off age, not six. Third-graders, not first graders.
Many years later the US army slaughtered men, women and children at Wounded Knee. I can’t help but wonder if this is what they would have done in the Utah war to the hated Mormons. This US vs. THEM mentality was not particular to the LDS in Cedar City. Even today, there is evidence of this mentality. Women and children died at Waco, not because they were specifically targeted, but because they were put at risk by the use of incendiary devices. The people at the Waco compound hadn’t killed anyone, but the FBI had this US vs. THEM mentality, and added another shameful act to US history. I think we have yet to learn the lessons of history. People tend to let their fears get the better of them, to envision the worst case scenarios over the more likely outcomes. Just the other day police shot and killed a man because he “might” have had a weapon. The Mountain Meadows Massacre could happen again tomorrow.
nibbler wrote:
rrosskopf wrote:The wagon train either 1) shouldn’t have poisoned the well or 2) turned over the people suspected of poisoning the well to let justice decide their guilt or innocence.
Here I believe you are presenting speculation as though it were fact. It’s possible that the Baker–Fancher wagon train did poison a well but anthrax is naturally occurring. Anthrax could have killed the cattle and handling an animal that died from anthrax could have killed Proctor Hancock Robison. War hysteria could have led people to conclude that what was a unfortunate series of natural events was a deliberate poisoning.
I don’t know whether or not the well was poisoned. It is irrelevant to the discussion. What is relevant is that the allegation was made, and suspects needed to be handed over for questioning, something that the Francher party refused to do. Their actions escalated the matter from Mormon vs. well poisoner to Mormon vs. Francher Party. Much has been said about the Mormons being paranoid, but the Francher party shared in that paranoia. They ddin’t want Mormon justice. Of course, there is no way to tell if they had cause to fear Mormon justice. Too much time has passed. Was the wagon train protecting cold blooded killers? I wish I knew.On Own Now wrote:
rrosskopf wrote:
…in what became known as the Utah war, but even this war was bloodless on both sides.
Well, as long as you don’t count the Mountain Meadows Massacre, anyway.
Yeah, I debated with myself whether to count it. I finally decided not to count it because it was not a military on military encounter. The people of Utah had a genuine beef with the wagon train, which they tried to settle first through legal means, and although they were extremely paranoid because of the current tension between the US and the church, it wasn’t part of Brigham Young’s war plans. It was an independent and isolated decision. The wagon train either 1) shouldn’t have poisoned the well or 2) turned over the people suspected of poisoning the well to let justice decide their guilt or innocence. If you put it in today’s context, you can’t just go to New York, poison a public water utility, and then refuse arrest because you are not a New Yorker.Minyan Man wrote:
rrosskopf, what is the point you’re trying to make? I’m not being sarcastic, I would like to know.
I’m not trying to make any point. I’ve always read the Book of Mormon from a 20th century point of view, where such wars were long past, and wondered why the Book of Mormon talks so much about war. Then it occurred to me today that it was very timely – from a 19th century point of view. I mean God tells Joseph Smith right up front that he is restoring the gospel because of the “calamities” which are about to befall the children of men, and those calamities are the wars that are about to change the world. Modern warfare is introduced in the US Civil war, and then even more modern warfare is introduced in the 1st world war, and then even more modern warfare is introduced in the 2nd world war. Within a relatively short span of time, warfare changed dramatically.I was wondering if this late recognition on my part was shared by anyone else, or if this was something obvious that only I missed.SilentDawning wrote:
We are expected to do all kinds of things because everything is inspired. Yet there are “unanswered questions” about people who are not main stream sexually oriented our religion can’t answer.
We are asked to take leaps of faith to discover whether something is inspired. Look at the brass serpent. See if you are cured. Pay an honest tithe. See if it doesn’t improve your relationship with the Lord. Go to the temple. See if it doesn’t improve your sense of fulfillment. Minister to others. See if it doesn’t bring joy into your life. Repentance is a leap of faith.Having been accused, on occasion, of unfairly judging others, I must say that I can hardly hold myself up as an example of unconditional love. I do not wish to hurt anyone’s feelings, nor do I wish to allow others to hurt my feelings. I look to Jesus as the example. He didn’t blame people for not having enough faith, but was always sad or mourning that faith was so rare. He didn’t use a lack of faith as an excuse to treat someone poorly; he ministered to people all across the spectrum. In fact he focused his energies on the sinners. The parable of the seed, where the seed is spread and sometimes finds favorable conditions to sprout and grow, and sometimes does not is a kind way of saying that sometimes people have faith, and sometimes they don’t, and it isn’t necessarily their fault. One doesn’t usually blame the seed, although in some cases the seed itself is bad. Good seed ends up in dry soil, or shady soil or thin soil or bad soil. We can’t assume that the seed is bad. For whatever reason, your faith is suffering. We all know what that is like. You are not alone. I only ask that you don’t judge me – for having faith. Perhaps my seed didn’t fall on the best soil. But the master gardener has since ministered to my needs, and nurtured my tender plant, until finally it has bore fruit. My heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh. I’m not saying that there isn’t room for improvement, but only that I feel things more fully than I once did. As Ebenezer Scrooge said, “I’m not the man I was.”
Perhaps there is an area here that deserves further study. How, exactly, did Jesus nurture the soil of those who had little faith? How did he get faith to sprout and grow and bear fruit?
Our judicial system is based on assigning blame. Some people have championed the idea of no-fault auto insurance; in some states insurance pays claims regardless of fault. The idea is based on the notion that no one wants to get into an accident. But those that work hard to know and keep the traffic laws expect equal diligence from others, and there is something to be said for that. I suggest the argument is one of agency; whoever has the most agency to prevent an accident has the greater responsibility or fault. No one is forcing people to drive drunk on the wrong side of the road in the middle of the night. People who drink and drive play a dangerous lottery. The same could be said for those who don’t study the traffic laws, believe the traffic laws are only suggestions, or who for a variety of reasons increase the probability of an accident.
No-fault auto insurance is a convenience. It reduces red tape, legal proceedings, and the need for lawyers. That convenience has a cost though. More people will have blasé attitudes towards driving, and the world will be a more dangerous place to drive.
There are cases were both drivers have done all they could do, within reason, and the accident still occurred. This is the point at which assigning blame or fault has little to no value. Anyway, this is my take on the issue and it is subject to change. Maybe I’m only half way there.
This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Imperfect Saints. “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” – John 6:71
Moderator note: This post has been moved for review.It is being reinserted, with an admin note in the following comment.
Can a gay person not find love and intimacy with the opposite sex? They usually don’t want to, but I’m pretty sure they can. Humans have a greater capacity for love than these labels will suggest.
It all comes down to what is important. We all have our own lists of what is important, and what is not, and which things are more important than others. To the degree we have different experiences, our appraisals will be distinct. And to the degree that we can have new experiences, that appraisal will change over time. The church represents one form of homogenization. To the extent that we share the same experiences in regards to our spiritual beliefs, we will be united in our values. People are often categorized as to whether or not they are a true blue believer, but such a designation doesn’t adequately describe the individual nuances. There is the convert, who after extensive searching finds the pure wonder of the LDS church. I knew a man who converted in his seventies. He appreciated so much what is normally taken for granted. He couldn’t get his fill of the truth; he enrolled in every class at the Institute building. He had been addicted to alcohol and tobacco. He finally found the faith to live without these substances.
Then there are those who are children of converts. They often lack that bolt of lightning that initiates them into their parents’ reality, and don’t see the wonder that their parents saw. Some trust their parents to such a degree that they act in every way like the true convert, without the benefit of the foundational experiences of their parents. It is enough that their parents had the experiences. Too often they are fascinated by the unknown, and follow their curiosity out of the church and into a decandent culture.
Each one of us tries to find our place in society, and the church is a society all its own. The three witnesses had marvelous testimonies of the church and of the Book of Mormon, but they envisioned for themselves better roles in the church, roles beyond just being a witness. They thought they deserved special considerations, and were perhaps a little too full of themselves. Sadly for them, the Lord’s purpose has never been to inflate the egos of the members. Their opinions on church matters were not held in great esteem, and they became offended, and refused to humble themselves.
In the end, humility is the door through which everyone must pass, and the path which everyone must follow thereafter. Those that don’t find humility very satisfying may not prosper in the church.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Please educate yourself or at minimum, don’t assume you know more than real women who have women’s bodies.
I have nothing against designing more comfortable garments. I have a wife. She is going through menopause. You don’t think I know the issues? I’m pretty sure that all those men who designed women’s garments had wives as well, and I’m not entirely sure they weren’t designed by women. I can’t picture men doing the sewing in 1840. So please – fill free to explain how it is all the fault of ignorant men.
bridget_night wrote:
There was a time in my life that I felt like I had been doing all the right things in church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, fasting, reading scriptures, praying. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming
Job went through a similar experience. He was doing everything right when fire came down from heaven and destroyed his sheep. Where were the promised blessings? Nephi’s own brothers wanted to kill him after following him to the New World. He felt as if he had been abandoned by God.
Joseph Smith went through this as well. He was in Liberty Jail, which was more like a dungeon. The saints were being persecuted, and Joseph was unable to help them, being stuck in jail for months, not being allowed to see a judge, or to be put on trial for any crime. He was too tall to stand up in the dungeon, which was an unheated basement open to the cold with bars on the windows. He had a thin jacket and small blanket with which to cope. His prayer is in the Doctrine and Covenants. He asks where God is hiding, and how he can ignore the prayers of his people. In response God gives him a revelation in which he tells him that if he is torn from his family, put in jail, and the jaws of hell gape open after him, it shall be for his good and give him experience.
Some of the greatest revelations came out of that jail.
But Job went on to receive many blessings as did Nephi and Joseph Smith. Our faith too must be tested, proved and stretched at times.
dande48 wrote:I am not looking for perfection. I am looking for “good enough”. And there are many instances in which the Church has not been “good enough” for me.
What more could the church possibly do? What other churches have done more?Old Timer wrote:
Quote:“Does the gift of God seem too meager for you?”
Consider, please, how condescending and condemning that question sounds to someone who has been uber faithful in the past and now is struggling.
I guess it could be taken that way. Some people would just realize that it is a gift from God and that they should look it from that perspective. There is no need to overcomplicate things. We don’t need to know all things from the beginning. We don’t need a perfect church. We don’t need perfect prophets. We do need to know the consequences of our actions. We can learn those the hard way, or the easy way.
