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Ray: You said, “We do vicarious ordinances to prove that we believe God can save and exalt anyone”.
Yes God can do that but who doesn’t believe that? Many people have been baptized and still leave the Church. For people who are outside the Church, to them, many babies have gone to hell for all eternity because they weren’t baptized. Those people are baptized because Jesus said that ordinance is absolutely essential. Mormons need to be aware of that truth:
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. (3Nephi 27:19)
And remember that ‘his kingdom’ (referring to the Father) in that verse refers to Telestial through Exaltation in the Celestial kingdom. (see D&C 76:40-44)
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
Consider the 4th article of faith. The first ordinance of the Church is baptism:
“baptism by immersion for the remission of sins”. Without this object called ‘the remission of sins’ you can’t be cleansed from your sins. You will be ‘filthy still’ when coming before the judgement
“they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels” (2Nephi 9:16)
I told this to a high priests group once and they said that there must be another way to cleanse them. I think of two words for that one – sacrilege and blasphemy. I would think that the Father has made it clear that there is one name associated with our salvation and no other ordinance is ever mentioned in connection with it.
You said:
“Thus, while I do NOT believe that all roads lead to Heaven, I DO believe that human life leads almost everyone to divine glory and that people can walk innumerable paths in this life and be exalted.”
OK, as long as those people walking all those other paths finally end up on the strait and narrow path that leads to eternal life, I can go along with that.
33 And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life,
and few therebe that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work. (3Nephi 27) All the other ways are dangerous. According to what Nephi saw, getting more than an arms length from the iron rod is significantly dangerous. All the other ways you seem to be referring to sound like those other people could be using them as excuses to get off the narrow path. Don’t fall for it.
I hope your final paragraph is, indeed, true.
Dark Jedi: You said:
Quote:Trying to think back, why did I want to return? I don’t know. It was certainly partly because of my family. It was partly because I had come to a place where I felt I had gained a new understanding of the Gospel/Church relationship and actually believed in God (just not in the same way I perceive most Mormons do). It was partly because I did have some yearning for social interaction with people I know and like.
Let’s take this piece by piece. “Trying to think back, why did I want to return? I don’t know.” (silence) You don’t know?? Let me suggest several reasons why you might leave it again. To do that, I’ll use subquotes from your main quote.
1. ” It was certainly partly because of my family.”
Well, it’s true that church activity (any church, for that matter) can be strengthening to a family, but it’s really not a sufficient reason to join a church, especially, the true one. The Lord expects a lot of those people.
2. “I had come to a place where I felt I had gained a new understanding of the Gospel/Church relationship.”
As you know, in the church we have an adult Sunday school called Gospel Doctrine. You will note that it wasn’t named Church Doctrine but GOSPEL Doctrine. If you remember, some decades ago, the Church sent out a monthly newsletter, to the unit leaders, called the Church Bulletin. It contained information for the units and every once in a while instructions on changes in the Church Handbook. Within time the resultant Handbook wouldn’t look much like the original handbook anymore. I’ m not putting that down. Procedures do change and the Church tries to accommodate them. As a result, CHURCH doctrine can change with the wind direction. Than the leaders started to base the things they said, in the handbook, according to gospel doctrine and they result was truly amazing. Since then there have been very much fewer changes. We can consider Gospel doctrine as Gibraltar doctrine. It changes for nothing!
I’m not terribly concerned what the Church doctrine is. But I am concerned about understanding what Gospel doctrine is. If the Church says that THIS is doctrine and I say no, THAT is doctrine and the Church says that I must not say THAT in a Church setting, then I won’t. But in the next breath I would ask them if they can show me where, they think, I have misunderstood the scriptures. If they can, that’s great. If they can’t, I still won’t say THAT in a Church setting, but I don’t think I would ever be able to believe it.
So, what about the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It hasn’t even been phased. There is one doctrine taught in the scriptures that I, probably, depend on more than anything else. I’ll call it the doctrine of priesthood keys. There are 15 men in the Church that hold all of them and one of those men is the reason the others even have them. Now I think I’ve said that right. Look that up for sure. I just ran into a lazy streak. Dark Jedi! If God has told you nothing, then that is exactly what you know—-Nothing! And the Church won’t be able to help to much. How do I know about the keys? God told me. And He also told me they are vitally important.
To me, leaving the Church would be insane.
3.(I)” actually believed in God (just not in the same way I perceive most Mormons do).”
Be careful. So far, you haven’t said anything about what God HAS told you let alone what He’s told you about what most Mormons believe about God.
4. ” It was partly because I did have some yearning for social interaction with people I know and like.”
I, also, know and like the people of my unit but when it comes to a knowledge and understanding of gospel doctrine, I don’t think they know what they are talking about. I could walk out and never come back and, ALMOST, never miss them. But many, many of them do know the important stuff – how to live it. That I would miss. They are a strength to me. God knows that and He knows that I know that.
The leaders could throw me out of the Church if they wanted to. They have the authourity. But on my own, I hang on for dear life. I know to much to leave.
Dark Jedi, may God be with you.
