Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I thought this could be an opportunity for my son. In his words, it sounds “horrible.” So this will be a no-go in our household. I can tell you that while my son was in a stateside mission while awaiting a visa to his assigned mission, there was no relaxing of rules. In fact, one large reason that he is now home is that when he was struggling with adjusting to mission life, the mission president cracked down mission-wide on communication to and from home. They were allowed to send and receive one letter/email per person per week. That was the last straw for my son, and triggered other issues that resulted in him getting sent home. The irony here is that he said that a majority of the missionaries he was exposed to (he was only there a month) all had “burner” or secret phones that were not monitored or controlled by the mission. In my interactions with the mission president I found him to be a loving, caring, and thoughtful man. I felt his love for my son. That said, I was extremely frustrated (and remain so) with what occurred. Even my reasonably orthodox TBM DW has struggled with the two year mission commitment coupled with the lack of communication allowed. Maybe my son would still be on his mission had we been able to talk through some of his issues. We’ll never know. And that is frustrating for all of us.
I look forward in hope that there will be alternative options soon for missionary service (non-proselytizing options, shorter terms, etc). Can you imagine a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Humanitarian effort coupled with the labor of tens of thousands of young men and women!?
As for relaxing rules for the rest of us, this is what I hope for (even though it may be too late for me):
1) Lets enforce the WoW as being moderate in all our habits and focus on healthy lifestyles
2) Since the church can build or purchase billion-dollar real estate developments all over the country (and perhaps the world) lets move on from tithing and focus on fast offerings, humanitarian, missionary funds and other needs for the people around us and in the world.
3) The unwritten rules of white shirts for men and dresses for women. Generally acceptable professional dress standards should be enough
4) The unwritten rules regarding facial hair and hair length for men, and earrings for women.
How about we focus more as a collective on what’s on the inside and not outward actions and appearance.
**edit**
Interesting update to missionary service:
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-changes-recommendation-process-young-missionaries ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-changes-recommendation-process-young-missionaries As I am someone in a full blown faith crisis, who also currently holds a calling that provides a front row seat to the tithing process, this story warms my heart. On the subject of tithing, it’s Ironic to me that the church just announced a new high rise office building development in downtown SLC. Interesting timing.
This is very timely for my family as my son is currently home and deciding whether or not to go back out. It’s hard to know how to best support him while allowing him time and space to make a decision that could shape the rest of his life.
Our friends, family, and neighbors have all been very kind. But will that turn to judgment when and if he decides not to return to his mission? Time will tell.
Arrakeen wrote:
I’ve been lurking here for a while lately.Hello fellow lurker! Love the screen name. Assuming it came from Frank Herberts universe, lots of good spiritual/religous nuggets to unpack from his books, especially the Dune series.
Arrakeen wrote:
During my faith crisis, I’ve done some things I probably shouldn’t have. I’m not sure if “repenting” to a bishop is necessary to be accepted in the community. I no longer really believe in priesthood authority, so for me it’s more a matter of community acceptance and participation than worthiness. I also don’t want to risk my ecclesiastical endorsement, on which hangs a lot of my time and money.I don’t believe nor will I ever believe in confession to a bishop or other lay leader. Leader Roulette is a real thing. I’d suggest this be something you keep between you and god. You don’t need anyone else to tell you when and if your repentance is sincere.
Arrakeen wrote:I just feel so alienated at church every Sunday. The talks and lessons are constant reminders of what I once believed in, and how I no longer fit in like I used to. Discussions in classes assume everyone is on the same page with their beliefs, which leaves me feeling left out most of the time.
You are not alone. You are NEVER alone. There are people with struggles and similar feelings probably sitting right next to you more than you know. I’ve come to believe that most talks and lessons that are given are what we expect others want to hear. I’m guilty of this. I’m sure others are as well. I try not to judge them for what they say. Even when those things are hurtful to me in my particular circumstances.
My life in this area changed dramatically and in a great way when I served in a young men’s presidency. Up to this point, I had no one in the ward I could point to and call “my friend.” I quickly learned through close contact with those guys that I was not alone. We didn’t have the same issues but I learned that we ALL have issues. As a Mormon culture, we are terrible at talking about them. One of those guys is now my closest confidant. I share most things with him, and he shares with me. Never any judgment. His issues are much different than mine, and wouldn’t be a challenge for me. And vice versa. We strengthen each other, if only when we vent. You need to find a person like this in your life. I know this is easier said than done. But it changed my life. It did take me a number of years to get to this point. It’s not a quick process, but this should’t be.
You will find friends and dating partners who accept you for who and what you are. If they don’t, then they don’t deserve your attention. There might be former friends that have been left by the wayside that you could reconnect with.
As for church attendance, I learned long ago just to “go to my happy place” during those moments where I strongly disagree with what is being taught or discussed. I have been able to mostly let go of the guilt and shame for not being the Mormon standard bearer. My dad, as orthodox as he is, has always said that if nothing else, its a victory when you just show up for church. Don’t worry about the rest. Contribute to the church on your own terms. Don’t let others define what you should be providing to and getting from church. This should be an individualized process, but that fact seems to get lost in the noise of administering a world-wide church. For all the talk of focusing on the “one lost sheep,” this rarely gets done.
Arrakeen wrote:
The good news is my family is very supportive, as many of them are fairly unorthodox themselves. I’m hoping I can find more acceptance here and find ways to participate while remaining authentic (and not get kicked out for perceived apostasy)
What a blessing it is to have a supportive family. I have not come out to mine. But I suspect that they know, and have always known. After all, my first faith crisis came when I was in junior primary and I refused to go to church.
🙄 I hope that some of this will help you. This site helped give me the courage to make positive changes in my life. To be able to accept the church in some form in my life. The people who contribute to this site seem to be very humble, supportive, and most of all, positive. While I can attest that this path is a lonely and uncharitable one, again remember that you are not going through this alone.
Roy wrote:
I am just thinking on this concept. In my formative years the church was my cradle. As a young adult it was my “match-maker”. As a middle-aged family man it is a support structure I lean on to help raise my children. We serve in callings (cub scouts and activity days) that directly influence my children and we strive to help those programs deliver quality experiences. Part of our motivation for participating in the church has been for our children to have shared experiences and milestones with their cousins. I have considered that when the children are grown DW and I may not really need the church anymore. Time will tell. Perhaps in retirement or after the death of a spouse the social conections of the church will become even more important. Perhaps as I approach death and grapple with my mortality the doctrines of eternal families or my desire to leave something of a legacy for my grandchildren will become increasingly urgent. I suppose the church will always be there and I will know where to find it if I need it.
Yes, almost exactly my thinking! Very eloquently stated.
My wife has asked me a number of times if she wasn’t around if I would still go to church. I don’t know the answer to that question. Probably I would go less often. I am much happier when I feel I have real choices. I don’t feel like I’ve every had legitimate choices when it comes to my membership in the church. Or rather, that I have been willing to accept the consequences of those choices.
I ask myself this question at least every day, and the answer isn’t always the same. I stay because it’s what my wife and family expect of me. I stay because it seems easier than leaving. I stay because there are MANY things I do really like about the church. I stay because I like the standards required of my teenage children. I stay because it’s where most of my social activities originate (the people I interact with, not specific church activities). I stay because it seems to be imprinted on my 5th generation pioneer heritage DNA. I stay because, what else would be better?
I pay tithing on approximate net, even though it bothers me a great deal. I work in real estate. I have friends who work in various roles in the church’s Real Estate departments. I have some small knowledge of how active the church is in this regard. I think tithing is more about obedience now, then an actual need for money. My opinion only, I have no “facts.” I do have a strong belief in fast offerings. I’m planning on decreasing my tithing and increasing my FO donations soon. I’ve seen how these funds are used, and they do a lot of good for a lot of people.
I regularly consume certain items explicitly prohibited by our church in its orthodox interpretation of the WoW. I avoid all sodas and other sugary drinks as well as other sugary treats and try to eat a balanced diet. The WoW is all about moderation for me.
I wear garments most days, but sporadically at night. It is much easier to wear them in the winter when I’m not constantly adjusting my shorts to make sure my religion is not showing. I don’t wear garments if I know I’m going to get hot and sweaty.
I attend SM most weeks. I do not attend SS, and attend EQ about once a month. I usually do not attend church when I travel. That’s part of my vacation, usually.
I have no plans to ever leave the church completely. I don’t understand, in most cases, the need to completely abandon the church. I do have plans some day to lower my regular commitment to it. There is too much to love and appreciate to leave it completely behind. That all said, I do try to respect other peoples decisions regarding the church. Everyone is different, and I expect that everyone has valid reasons for doing what they do.
For me it comes down to two things:
1) Love God
2) Love Others and treat them how I want to be treated
The rest is just details.
This thread has been fascinating. Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts. There are so many uplifting and interesting things to think about on this thread. To the original poster, FaithfulSkeptic, you appear to be “all in” to me. I’m actually in AWE that you do all you do, with the doubts that you have. So many similarities to where I was a number of years ago. Hopefully in time your wife will come around to see what you are doing, and not what you are NOT doing. Hang in there, brother! I’ve been thinking a lot about this stuff, as I feel like I always get stirred up around conference time. I can’t help it. There are a few talks that are like a salve to my soul. But too many others that make me feel inadequate and that no matter what I do, it will never be enough. I generally avoid GC and follow up on key talks that look interesting later on. This time I listened to most of it live. Mistake.
Usually I am happy that I have doubts and that I don’t toe the line. I’m not talking about deliberate disobedience of principles I know to be true, but rather that I have been able to find an equilibrium where I take what I want out of my church membership and minimize the rest. Today I wish that I just believed, and didn’t have to wear myself out mentally day after day, week after week, month after month, etc. I feel trapped. I’m exhausted.
It’s been a roller coaster last six months. I accepted under duress a major calling 6 months ago where I interact very frequently with the bishop. I helped my son prepare for a mission, ordained him, and attended the temple together. That was a very challenging few weeks for a partial believer. We sent him off to the MTC and however hard I expected that to be, it was so much worse. A month or so back, and for the first time, I laid all my cards on the table with my wife. Full disclosure. It was the scariest thing I have ever done. She didn’t throw me out or put any unreasonable demands on me. It used to be that she said I needed to keep a TR no matter what. She has softened on that, thank goodness. We still have a lot of boundaries to set and things to work out, but at least we have a starting place now. So, she’s supportive in many ways, yet not in others. My son came home early from his mission. Most days he plans to go back out. Until next spring we are in limbo. I’m supposed to support him going back out when I really don’t want to, but I also want him to go and obtain those experiences he can only get by serving a mission. I have to decide if I’m going to renew my TR. It has expired. To stay in my calling I need to renew it. So much stress, so much pressure to conform (I recognize this is mostly self inflicted). Some days it’s easy, most days its not.
I love all the blog posts and articles I’ve seen lately about levels of belief within our church. I about fell out of my chair when I read the blog post on lds.org about the young wife not leaving her husband for the church. Amazing! What uplifting and nuanced views she has! I honestly think the church is losing a lot of the younger generation. They don’t believe things in the way older folks do. They consume all things differently. Generational shifts are not a new thing, and sometimes they are more overblown than necessary, but from what I’m seeing and hearing anecdotally, the church needs to figure out how to better reach this next generation and others who are not “all in.” That, or accept that the active membership rolls will be much smaller than they ever have been. This is not a problem unique to our church, to be sure.
I’m going to try to apply a principle that has guided me well regarding wealth. I strive to be happy with what I have, knowing there will always be people with more, and always people with less. I think I need to apply this to spiritual matters as well. I need to enjoy where I am in this process as opposed to where I think I want to be, especially when I don’t know where I really want to be when things are all said and done.
Early on in the ward I’m in (over 10 years ago), our EQ quorum had some very spirited discussions. Lots of back and forth. Tempers were not held in check at all times. I didn’t realize how rare and special that was until later when I realized that I attend EQ about 1x a month at most, and that when I do it’s usually the same regurgitated conference talks or discourses from the lives of prophets… read a section and discuss. Zzzzzzzzzz Meanwhile I hear from my wife about how great the RS lessons are. Maybe there is a disconnect between how guys and gals teach and interact with each other, but it probably has more to do with my more cynical attitude versus her more open, simple, and great full faith.
I’m cautiously optimistic that the combined EQ will improve things, but it can’t last. Either way, I’m generally pretty aloof when it comes to discussions. I’ll have them with small intimate groups of people I trust, but not with the rank and file members in EQ. It’s not that I’m afraid, per se, but rather I don’t see the point. At least in large groups.
Welcome, OTR. I love the name, for sure. It reminds me of a time in EQ where our instructor, as part of his lesson, read the prayer from the Rameumptom in a Monty Python British accent. We were in stitches, and remains one of my favorite lessons of all time. I suggest this method to anyone reading that section of the BOM. One of my biggest issues with the church as an organization is how it lags behind on what I view as important social issues. On the gay front, I have a unique perspective of having relatives both in and out of the church. They have chosen different paths, and it’s been interesting to observe. That said, I have some definite opinions on the matter.
On feeling safe to speak up… I’m not there yet. But I’m close. What was a game changer for me is when I realized that the members in my ward are not as Orthodox as I thought. I’m fortunate to have a close cadre of friends with whom I can have real and critical dialogue. We often don’t agree but it works. Perhaps some day you will find like minded, or at least open minded friends that you can open up to. It’s literally changed my life for the good, it having to constantly internalize everything.
Again, welcome, and see you around!
Thank you Sheldon. Great thoughts to implement. I’ll make a note of these. Also thanks for your thoughts as well Curt. I’ve reached a form of peace now, and realizing that I can and will be me (if perhaps a bit toned down) maybe I can do some good for others, and for myself.
Often I wish everything in the Church didn’t have to be so hard for me. My square peg gets bruised trying to fit the round holes. What helps so much is the realization that there are other shapes out there, if not exactly like mine, then like enough to share a common struggle with our collective fit. Perhaps I’m better with these challenges.
Roy wrote:
In my home we have a rule never to agree to anything the same day that it is presented. This mostly applies to sales people but also to church callings. If the opportunity will not be available tomorrow then unfortunately I will have to pass.For church callings we spiritualize it somewhat by saying that we never agree to anything affecting our family without the opportunity to counsel together as husband and wife, to pray about it together, and to sleep on it to come to a unified decision. This will give you a chance to reflect on how such a calling will affect you and your family. I make a point to contact the bishop or bishopric member the very next day with our answer.
This is a great strategy. I’m going to adopt it going forward. Thanks!
dande48 wrote:
I had something similar happen, a few years back. I was personally asked and interviewed by a member of the SP, to serve in the EQP. My wife already knew the jist of how I felt, but I still felt so much pressure,I accepted it. That night I wrote an email, turning it down, giving only minimal details why.Roy’s suggestion hit the nail on the head. Never make such a big decision without taking the time to think things over. I would turn it down, and I don’t any excuse beats “I prayed, and don’t feel right about it.”
I think that if I knew that my wife was fully supportive of where I am in my faith evolution, I would be comfortable turning it down. As it is, when I suggest that I don’t want a call, she always mentions it could be worse. I am not comfortable with full disclosure yet. I’m sharing in dribs and drabs, out of fear, as well as out of a desire not to rock the boat too suddenly.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
As far as the WoW stuff and the “newfound freedom”, I found this article comforting in the sense of knowing we have plenty of rule-bending comrades out there. Interestingly, the vast majority of non-comforming Mormons are outside of Utah, which I believe has mostly to do with the social aspect of getting together for either coffee or tea for breakfast, or a drink at the end of the day.https://rationalfaiths.com/temple-recommend-status-word-wisdom-observance-contemporary-mormonism/
Thank you for sharing that article. I have a great story of attending a business reception out of state not that long ago. I had obtained some hors d’oeuvres and a drink and started a conversation with a guy I hadn’t met before. He had a similar beverage. As we were talking he asked where I was from. When I told him I was from Utah, he asked if I was LDS. I looked at my drink, and told him I was, but not a very good one. He sheepishly looked at his glass and said he was LDS as well.
:wtf: What are the chances???? We shared wry look and had a great discussion about business as well as what it meant to be LDS. I am lucky to have a small circle of like-minded LDS friends. Some in the my ward, some not. We bend the rules together, very moderately, from time to time. All have their TR. We never really have discussed how we rationalize what we do. We just “do.”SilentDawning wrote:
This is the problem — you used an avoidance strategy to get what you want. Avoiding generally doesn’t work for long — people overcome it.
Yes. I recognize this, now. Excellent point. At some level, I have to be willing to both actively and pro-actively be willing to say “no.” I’ve been conditioned to say “yes” so much, it’s very hard to say “no.”
SilentDawning wrote:
b) stay with it for a year or a year and a half, do what I can without selling my soul, rely on counselors to teach lessons, if any, I don’t want to teach. Struggle along for a while. After a reasonable time, come back here for strategies to get out of the calling and set new boundaries again.
This will be my path, I think. I do travel quite a bit, and at some point I may be able to use that as a justified reason to step down, and reset my boundaries. But until then, I think I’ll need to go with the flow. Who knows, maybe it will not be as horrible as I’m anticipating. At least that’s what I’m banking on.
Thank you all for your ideas and empathy. If nothing else, the empathy itself is astonishingly helpful.
This is profound, and worth thinking about. With my thoughts currently being monopolized by a serious change to my status quo, I equate the church to be the box. I know like most here, I place myself firmly out of the box, but with most my daily interactions to be with people inside the box. Maybe it isn’t enough to accept that while I feel like I have no business being inside the box, I do need to step in and take a turn inside the box from time to time.
I’m following this topic with interest. I’m ambivalent with scouts. My mother earned my eagle for me, yet my oldest son earned his recently on his own. This same son attended an international jamboree a few years ago. Our biggest revelation is that the scouting program internationally was co-ed. Boys and girls together in troops. There was a lot of international relationship building by our boys on the trip, along with some scouting. :shifty: 😆 I echo others concerns that this will turn more into an evangelical program with less focus on practical skills and having fun. They HAVE needed to fix the disparity of types of activities between YW/YM. We’ll see how they do.
This is easily my number one pet peev of our church culture. And it’s almost always in direct response to a witnessed lapse of what I call the “visible sins.” Those “sins” would include things like WoW observance, Sunday activities, and church attendance (inactivity). I’ve mentioned before in that I’m an intensely private person. We’ve lived in our current home for over 10 years. When we moved in I told my wife that I didn’t care what she talked about with her neighbor friends, but under no circumstances was she to talk about bedroom matters or money. Believe it or not, this actually did limit her social circle in the ward at first. But then at that time we had a bunch of insecure catty gals who have since moved on to greener (as in the color of money) wards. I’ve been in some of these so-called welfare meetings or ward councils in various roles. I noticed how word almost ALWAYS got out. This is why I’ve told my wife long ago (and recently my new bishop) that the first time I hear that I’m on a list will also be the last time. Just prior to the EQ reorganizations I noticed that random and casual ward “friends” of mine were making an effort to seek me out. Invariably the topic would come back to getting me to attend EQ more often (I’m there 1 to 2 times a month at most, and that’s I’m in town). I didn’t like the feeling. It felt forced. It was a clear signal that I’m being talked about.
I do understand that for many, if not most, the outreach from one member to another is sincere. I just wish more of it was, and that there was less judgment. I know that this is something I’m working on (judgment), and trying to see the good in everyone.
