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Hi, Normally you hear the total opposite case occurring (ie people have to request over and over and over again to have names removed etc)!
Maybe the BM was just one of those really organised types that likes to have things in a “finished” state or something. I doubt he meant to offend in anyway.
Its made me think a little though regarding if I was to leave would I want to go as far as to get my name removed. I would have to ponder it a bit I guess. I dont think I could automatically say NO, so I am not sure what that saids about me!
Anyway IMO your experience is not the norm, so just take it for what I think it was…just a simple inquiry.
Cheers,
This is a pretty big issue for myself and at this point I am on the same page as Curt. For most of my life I was under the impression it was done for the practical side of the times eg helping poor widows etc. Obviously now I know a bit more and cannot understand it as anything other then JS being way out there, BY following etc. I see the way it was practiced here on earth as being of man and not of God…well not the one I believe in anyway. Curt there was another thread a few weeks back which you should read if you havent already
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27” class=”bbcode_url”> I think I will really limit what I say as this area of my testimony has been completely shaken and I no longer feel the temple is truth. I guess I take it all too literally or whatever but in my mind if it was all divine truth I do not understand why the endowment would need to be copied from the Masons in the first place, changed over time etc etc. I know many Brethren have made the comment over various times that what JS established was a “greater truth” then the freemasons had at that time but since discovering the connection, and the depth of that connection, and the amount of early leaders that were all into being Masons themselves etc, all credibility in the temple and its associated acts as being divine has now been lost on me, and I feel the whole secrecy thing had a lot more to do with the practice of plural marriage then anything else. I will be honest and say that my feelings regarding the temple in general do make staying LDS very hard as it seems “all paths lead to the temple” within the programs and teachings within the church. I am still pondering all of this. I am sorry if my feelings offend any of you reading my post.
Anyway I just wanted to present another side (ie a less then positive one) to how some people may feel about the connection of the endowment and masonary.
Hello and Welcome, Not to sound like a broken record, but I am definitely in line with all your points…thanks for sharing…this is a good place for you to be.
I am especially similiar to you re Sunday feelings and also re hearing of talks. I hope that this somewhat “negative” phase will soon pass for both of us, and then we can move onto being less “absolutist” etc.
Im just a little different to you in the sense that my dh went through this several years ago and at that time I was like your DW…then prop 8 started up and the direction of the church totally spun me out and started me discovering what I did and did not truely believe…then the research occured…then the loss of big chunks of my testimony…then the start of grieving which comes and goes in waves and for which many TBMs do not get, Its hard, but at least this forum is here to help!
I recently heard someone comment that they thought 09 was going to be hard for them as they have some major exams in front of them…then someone else encouraged that person by saying “just stay positive and remember that when doing anything hard, great growth results”…that kind of stayed with me for sometime as I too do believe that it is via hardships that often wonderful personal growth results…here is hoping anyway!
Wow V, well done. At least you were not debated, to me that is a sign that people did agree!!!!
Personally I am no where near being that vocal yet.
KInd of on a side note, I recently sent a note to my RS Pres requesting I no longer be assigned VTing, or be VT. She responded by asking for a visit with me.
She came yesterday and it was a good experience. Basically she knew a little about my dh dissaffction from Bishop, and then she was also told recently that I had rejected a RS teaching calling as I had some issues with teaching publicly on JS. So basically I just expanded on what I have been going through. YOu know she did get my point. I told her I did not want to ever hurt anyone else and that this was my journey and right now I need to lay low so I can think and ponder things. I told her some lessons I will filter out, and some I think i may not even attend, or even walk out on, but I stressed to her when she witnesses this that I did not want her to freak out and think I was offended etc. I told her that my journey started when I saw the church moving in a direction that I was not comfortable with, and for the first time ever I was not on the same page as the Prophet, hence why I do not want to be sharing GA messages in the VT messages etc as frankly many of them I no longer conform to or support. My discomfort on the future has now been compounded with histroical issues…hence I am totally in limbo now but do not wish to leave yet as being LDS has been good for me to date, thus I am giving myself time to digest, think, and slowly decided how I wish to live and believe in the future.
So yes I spoke up but not in a classroom setting. I was really happy that it was just taken on board by my RS leader. I felt really blessed that day for this experience. Our Bishop has been much the same.
Cheers,
I live in Australia, and thus we usually follow the US trends re the global economic situation. So yes many here are really struggling now that home values have dived etc, unemployment is now just starting to hit etc. Personally my dh and I fine as besides our mortgage we have no consumer debt at all. The key for all countries will be holding onto ones job for the next 2 years so as to ride out the storm.
I am a financiall counsellor by profession (and also ex fin planner so know ionvestments pretty well) so if any of you would like me to be an ear to listen to I am more then happy to but I am not sure if this board has a message facility..if not I can set up a generic one. I will refrain from telling anyone what to do but I can maybe communicate what the general options would be moving forward.
In general I will say the following to all:
* hold onto your job and if you feel it is on shaky ground then start doing some under the radar job seeking
* Avoid any career switch right now
* If you are in a negative equity position with your house consider your options VERY carefully, dont hold onto it out of pride thinking things will get better as they will but not in the short term, and recovery perhaps will take much longer then we all expect it to, the earlier post of getting out of owning property early is a great example of using your head over your heart
* If you have shares and dont need to sell, then dont, the losses so far are just on paper, they are real if you SELL in this current market.
* Start being real, and living within your means…cut up the cards if they are too much temptation, or freeze them, as they will take 2 days to thaw and be of any use thus giving you time to think before you buy.
Basically we all need to realise that money just gives us stuff, not a life. If we are living beyond our means we are not being genuine, honest people that so many on this board aspire to be in a spiritual sense.
Prayers to you all. Stay positive but act smart.
Cheers,
My quick response for now (and this is in addition to many of the helpful hints that have already been listed) is TIME. Its a good thing at times to let TIME do its thing…sometimes the concern is forgotten, or appears less important, sometimes the reverse happens! I am sure I am not alone…but in the early days of my crisis in faith I was consumed with reading whatever I could…good, bad, ugly. I swear one day I spent about 8 hours (not all at once, but in 15mins chunks constantly) going through Mormonthink.com, and another day I read “Shaken Faith Syndrome”. Basically though both of these just opened up more issues for me to think about!
Anyway right now I am in a phase where I am not really focussing on my LDS concerns actively every single day. Its mostly on Sunday’s. That may sound weird but I am finding that I just need to get on with my life, focus on my personal faith in Christ each day, and deal with my concerns with Mormonism less. Mind you I find myself still checking these boards daily…but then again I also surf the news daily too…I am always on the net.
My point is I have lessened my focus a little….Ive needed to do this to keep sane. I also think sometimes you can overthink things…so I am kind of at the stage where I try to think about my feelings re the church only when I practically cannot, and obviously most of the time this occurs on Sundays.
So thats my 2cents worth…it has helped as I am somewhat less self absorbed, and Amen to that I say!
I know many may be able to explain the changes that have occurred with the actual temple practices etc, but I am not able to move past it yet and it does cause me a lot of confusion as to how I may be able to move forward LDSwise…as it seems all paths lead to the temple in the LDS faith. It may seem weird to some but I am currently just trying to be a member and not be involved in this part of the doctrine….its only early days yet so I cannot report yet whether it is working for me 
The cause of this part of my faith being very shaken is the connection with masonary in the beginning etc….I was always of the thought that temple work was in line with what we learn in the old testament etc, and LDS scholars have come forth and confirmed the link with the Masons etc. Also to me the temple is a place where polygamy is still practiced, even though GAs claim publicly that this is no longer part of our practices etc….
Hi, I can appreciate your feelings. Maybe we do as you say as many of us have invested so much of our lives believing in it. Even with such obvious flaws that i now know about, I cannot just walk away…not yet anyway. I want to ponder things, let time do its thing, as I know sometimes with time, things become LESS concerning. Maybe I am a little in denial…who knows. I am usually a very decisive person, but with this I am just fence sitting for now.
My dh is dissaffected, and I have only in recent months started to understand his feelings as I am now going through them. I guess for me I am finding it hard to wonder what place religion would have in my life is I had no LDS interaction at all. I still see that my activity has been good for my life in many ways. I know that my life would still be good without it, but I guess I just cannot be “ungrateful” (cannot think of a better word) for what it has provided to date and just abondon it, even though I guess many many things will now bother me moving forward.
I am totally rambling…sorry. I dont have a real answer, just to me perhaps we stay as we are as it is like a parent/child thing. Even the most flawed parents in the word often have a hold on the child forever!!!! I guess I am just hoping to hold onto the church and filter out the incorrect stuff, and enjoy the good stuff. Again its trying to find the middle ground, that after 3 years of trying my dh gave up on as it just didnt work!
Timely topic for me as just last sunday in SM I wrote my RS pres a little note requesting she not assign me a VT to visit, and asked that I not be assigned to VT anyone also at this point. She is not fully aware of my feelings, she knows that my dh has recently left the church. Anyway I just said briefly that I too was having some doubts and just want to lay low for a time so that I can think and process my feelings…and in the mean time I did not want to be teaching anything that I may not feel OK about anymore, nor do I wish to share my feelings with a lot of people of this point as I know how confronting it is to LDS members in general. I too have never been the usual RS woman. I do have 3 kids, but really I am not a natural MOther. I love my kids but I am not driven by domestic stuff at all. Thus I have always had other things going on…work PT (out of choice), have just finished my Masters etc….these keep me sane, and help me NOT turn into a wicked witch (but in school hols it can happen!!!!). I have had many other LDS girlfriends over the years see me anxious at times over an exam or assignment due etc…only for them to say something like “why do you put yourself through it when you dont have to?”…..I also am the most un crafty, un musical person you could met, so as my talents are mostly Computer, finance/money related, I do not normally gel with many of the RS women as I just am not geared that way. Mind you I love them, but just know I will never be soul mates with them. I also find many of their dhs are happy I am a little distant as many LDS males often find me a bit too direct…it makes me chuckle a lot at times!!!!
So in essence I would say go with the letter option, or just say no for now like I have. I havent had a response yet my my RS pres but I will let you know how it goes.
Hi, I guess I can relate to your post pretty fully. Its more common knowledge about my dh disaffection now, and yes I feel people are looking/treating me differently…but maybe people like you and I are just more sensitive now….my secret side though is that no one at church yet knows that I am now agreeing with how my dh feels about many many things LDS wise….Im only at the start though, he was pondering things for 3 years before he decided he didnt want that identity or part of his life anymore. I am still attending etc as I dont want to do anything rash, Im still thinking about a lot of what I have learned etc nd Im wanting primary for my kids at this point etc.
I too feel that because I have fully accepted my dh and his change in testimony and activity that many are trying to work out how I can still be with him? I feel this mostly from my immeditate family. Its pretty annoying actually…whatever happened to “from the fruits ye shall know them”? My dh is a great dad, hubby, provider, professional etc…but now he has declared he no longer wants to be LDS, he has been wiped! Gone from probably the most respected SIL according to my parents (as he has had a very successful life to date) to being just some guy I married 13years ago! Its a joke…..
So a disease?…maybe that is too strong a word, but yes I feel I am looked at and treated differently. I recently turned down a calling and did sense the meeting ended much differently then any other interview I remember. I also know that when my feelings come out to others about what I no longer believe I know my family and possibly others will not give me credit for my own thoughts, but just blame my Dh for influencing me….how wrong they are….it was Pres Monson getting all polictical that lead me down this journey…dh has simply been there to listen to my confusion and to hug me while I go through the various stages of grief I am now experiencing.
All I can stay is that I certainly now have a testimony that all that matters in this life is how I feel about myself each and every day, how I feel I can follow Christ in my everyday living….only I can know what I feel is heading me in that direction or not…only I can know how I feel I have been directed personally by my Father in Heaven.
Happy new year!
You know in some ways it would be good over the longer term if the LDS church CULTURE was to become a bit more like the other churches out there (eg mainstream Catholic)….that is they have a whole rainbow of member types, and all seem to be accepted etc…they have some that attend every Sunday and often mid week without fail, take communion, express confessions to leaders etc etc…then they also have those that only attend a service that is part of Xmas, Easter, a christening or whatever…then of course they have many in the middle. However it has been my experience that one can very easily been “classed” in the mormon culture….tbm, nom, less active, spouse of non-member etc etc etc. It goes back a little to the all or nothing topic we discussed….the culture is very much if you are not ALL, you may very easily and frequently be judged as being inferior….this is a sad but real fact.
I mentioned earlier how I said no to a calling recently as I didnt feel comfortable teaching of JS due to the manuals skimming over so many things that can cause grief to members when they find out on the internet etc. I also recently had my brother instead of my dh baptise my son as my dh has recently become fully dissaffected. So over the past month I have felt that people now see me differently….and I can only imagine this may become more obvious when people start to recognise that I too only want certain involvement at this point in time.
I am a fairly strong personality, so much of this I can ignore. I still hope to continue attending but my realist side knows that at times I may not feel very “included” (for lack of a better word). I certainly dont want to be a project, I dont wish to have people pretend to include me…Im trying to say that I would find it refreshing if people in the future continue to treat me as they have in the past dispite the fact now that I dont wish to be so full-on with my LDS activity etc. Thats my ideal….only time will tell….one Sunday at a time…that is my motto for the moment!
Its really annoying when Ive had other sisters say “hi, i havent seen you for ages in RS”….the tone spoken was really weird….little did this dumb woman know that I had in fact been serving in Primary (which is in the downstairs part of the building) for the past 3 years…so her comment just reinforced that if she genuinely wanted to know where I was she would not of had to look very far!!!!!
Ive never really had a problem with giving. I have a finance background and one of the best books Ive ever read is “The Richest Man in Babylon”. A law of finance is that one should pay themselves first (ie save/invest a certain amount each and every pay), then share with others (ie give to others in need), then pay for their consumption. Often it can be 10%,10%, 80%, or when income is higher it may be a 20%, 20%, 60%, or if you are Bill Gates it may be 10%, 80%, 10%. The theory works if one does it over their entire life as it is simply living within your means, saving for a rainy day, and helping others less able along the way. Giving away on a regular basis I think keeps you grounded, and reminds you that though money is good, it is not ALL that life is about.
So Ive always religiously paid tithing, and all of this money went to the church until very recently. Yes I have been blessed, though never always flush with funds, HF knows I get nervous when I am running short, and without fail it is at these times that somehow it all works out.
My dh is dissaffected and has only recently become concerned about us paying tithing. So for the moment we are still placing 10% of our income aside, but as yet have not decided who to pay it to. So far this year the church has received more then 6months worth of tithing. We will probably make the choice closer to the end of the financial year of who gets the second half. But since the church has recently started spending money on commerical interests (ie shopping mall in SLC), that histrorically the church administration has not had a great track record in being successful with, I doubt that the church will get the full 10% this year. I want us to give as a priority, but I can not argue against my hdh wanting to give it to someone else at this point.
Again tithing is a principle…its about giving…Im not 100% anymore if I think we should only ever give to the church when there seems to be many many worthy causes out there. Thats how I feel today anyway. I think a better policy would be to always aim to give, some to the church as it is a community you are involved in and thus all should pay something (as yes nothing in life will last if it is free) And some to others in need that you can see need it!
Mcarp…totally get what you are saying and even when you live in less rich LDS areas your experience is typical. Doubters sit and think, its the LDS culture…not many people want to talk about such things it is too confronting….then you have many of the leaders that make out it is a weakness for doubting, and give you responses “just pray more and you will feel better”. You know I think you holding back from having any response to your FIL just goes to show that you are not a MEAN person! That is Christlike behaviour in my view. Our journeys are all so personal and it is our journey alone. Though it helps to share at times, we need to be careful as who wants to be the one that leads to another going through much of the grief we know!
Besides my dh not many people know how doubting I have become. I feel this urge to discuss things with my Mother but I will refrain and just give her info on a “needs to know basis” as I know that she will not get where I am out and only see what I am going through as a personal attack on her beliefs….I am not into doing that. At the end of the day she is happy living a faithful LDS life, and part of me hopes she never becomes doubting because at 74 years of age it would kill her!!!!!
Use the forums to keep your sanity. I am then just trying to live my life honestly. If someone at church wants to know how I feel I will explain but not in the middle of class or in a hallway etc.
YOu know part of this is ironic. When we discover the “good news” of the LDS church and become baptised we are encouraged oh so strongly to share it….sometimes I think many people of doubt feel this desire to share what they have learned too, as they dont want to have others they love being deceived as they perceive they have been by the church or prophets or whomever etc. Our instincts kick in though and we dont do this (well I feel most caring people avoid becoming a missionary of doubtful thinking)…maybe this is the real power of the Spirit? Spiritual knowledge etc is so emotional and personal and thus I think it should stay personal most of the time.
Emma great story thanks. I just had a conversation yesterday with a non-member girlfriend. I was trying to share some of my journey with her to help her understand some of the things I have been going through emotionally of late. As she is not a member I was greateful for her perspective.
I basically was sharing how I once believed certain things, lived that way and have without question been very happy. She was surprised that at that initial point of taking on the belief that I did not want to discover more about what I was committing too etc.
I sort of said to her…”well I kind of didnt need to know or question it any more at that point as what I beleived in was resulting in a happy life etc”. I wanted to believe as it all sounded good, made sense, was logical, no harm was going to come from it, my life improved etc etc.
So I guess again in life I see that in art (eg cartoon show) many profound things can be found! I have always thought that God was able to make connections with us in some of the strangest ways!!!!
