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I have noticed this in the past, although not recently. One of the more annoying things is people texting on their phones.
I am still puzzled by the water in the sacrament (that for another time), but I did notice that after some people have taken the water that they just throw the empties back into the tray in a very blasé way.
As I understand it, the emphasis in “churchianity” is on form, not practice, and group behavior, but not the beliefs (or even behavior) of the church going individuals. So someone goes to all the church functions, but doesn’t try to live a more Christian life, or they do what’s expected of them, but haven’t experienced that inner change or still do certain things which are not very Christian. I’ve not heard this word used in Mormonism, but I’m sure Mormons are as guilty of it as people in any other church. The more mainstream a denomination, the more likely you are to find such people. I would also suspect it’s more common in places with a large Mormon population, as opposed to places where Mormons are a minority.
I would suspect a lot of John was originally in Greek, from the style. You’re probably right about Matthew. Still, a lot of the names had to be transliterated. I thought the first link was very good (haven’t read the second). Emotional stuff is often less obvious than physical disabilities. Quote:Dash1730 – I went AWOL from the Church for 15 years because, for me, it had lost all sense of spirituality / usefulness, etc. I walked after setting thru 3 hours of meetings on Easter Sunday, when, with the exception of the prayers, the words “Jesus Christ” were never mentioned once! This was in a Salt Lake ward. I checked out a few other churches, but nothing particularly rang my bell. So I mostly soloed after that time. It enabled me to go hiking and backpacking on weekends with no guilt, and I certainly felt more uplifted than I was in all those boring meetings. I gave up on G’s and all other ties with the church. I got rid of most, but not all of my church books. But I did keep some of the outward observances. I didn’t sleep around, didn’t smoke, and drank only occasionally.
Well, I have to say Jesus got mentioned plenty of times today in the local church here! I’ve been away for a long time like you (not as long but long enough) I do have a lot of sympathy with what you’re saying. I have had a problem with boredom in some meetings, even when certain GAs were speaking on a TV broadcast (!).
There is an old saying about nature being the other book of God, the other one being the Bible (obviously a non-Mormon said this). It’s a cliche, but there’s something in it, like a lot of them. Nature’s good for you, if you spend most of your time in town. It’s helped me a lot over time.
I’m glad that you have found yourself a good woman as well.
Old-Timer wrote:At heart, it means “to unify” or “to restore what is broken”. If you posit a “Fall”, becoming “at one” would mean having what was fallen returned to an “unfallen” state, albeit not the same state as before the Fall. So, in essence, it means becoming one with God – or united with God – or godlike / godly.
Fwiw, I believe that is one of the central concepts recorded in the Bible – but it certainly sounds more Buddhist than mainstream Christian. Personally, when it comes to the eternal big picture, I think Buddhism is much closer to the Biblical ideal than most of modern Christianity.
Thanks, the second definition – “to restore what is broken” – makes some sense to me. I have heard the “at-one-ment” thing before, and never really got it.
I intend to bring up Buddhism and also meditation in a discussion in the near future. It’s not something I’d be keen to discuss at church, but I think some of it might go down well here. I certainly think that there are some things worthwhile in it, although how some of it fits with Christianity is another question. Personally I think it’s more a case of some common ancestry in the thought, rather than Buddhism influencing Christianity (as some have argued). I’ll bring it up on a separate thread soon.
Some years ago, I got very interested in psychology (purely as an interest – not a job option). I began to realise, as I read through more and more of the material, that dozens of people around me had one issue or another – they either didn’t know it in many cases, or weren’t telling. And it wasn’t just the people I was around either. I think pretty much everyone gets depression at some point in their life, and for that 25-60% (depending on who you read), it can get pretty serious. I don’t doubt that some of the people involved in early Mormonism may have had some form of “mental instability”. So too did many of the people who opposed or tried to undermine it too. And no doubt a large chunk of those who took no interest in it. If we’re going down that road, then we have to further break down the nature of their illness, and whether or not is a good thing. Epilepsy has been mentioned. Now I’m told, by people who have had epilepsy that they have incredibly transcendent phases as well as more unpleasant ones. Maybe they experience in these phases the things that most people normally are not seeing.
I find Jung’s idea about these things very interesting. He suggests that the symptoms of mental illness may actually be the mind trying to heal itself, and resolve things, rather than the actual illness itself. I once had an extremely bad time in my life, but it opened my eyes to many things. I started appreciating some forms of modern art, got into foreign films in a bigger way, and generally reappraised my life values – some of which I now realise were hollow. I’m now better in myself, but it took this jolt to open my eyes to new things, many of which I still enjoy.
Sometimes episodes actually move us on in life, instead of holding us back, as is often thought to be the case. In certain respects, the more unusual aspects of early Mormonism seem to prise it free from the old guard Yankee puritanism, and into a new direction.
Quote:Comparing our social norms, expectations, etc to that time period is untenable intellectually.
In many cultures visions and experiences of this sort are seen as learning processes. In our culture, the first reaction is to pack the person off for medication or other things. In some parts of the world, they’re labelled as crazy wisdom. That’s partly because in this culture only the waking conscious “sane” mind is seen as valid. It may be why so few of us get much out of our dreams. We aren’t machines, at least not like the machines we ourselves make, and never will be.
Take a look at the backgrounds of some of the greatest people that have ever lived – poets, composers, musicians, painters, writers, inventors (yes, scientists too), architects, filmmakers etc… You’ll often find that greatness is tied to a kind of “instability”, while their stable peers get forgotten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_wisdom Check this out too
Someone mentioned “at-one-ment” today as an explanation of atonement. I have heard that phrase before, but I’m fairly puzzled as to what they mean by that. It sounds kind of gnostic/Hindu! Can someone gloss this explanation for me please? Hi Wildroot, I have only just joined myself, and will be interested to hear how you get on. I agree with you when you say that JS made some mistakes. I think he did, it’s part of being human. Even official documents say he does, because he lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon at one stage. I’m amazed you’re 18. You sound a lot more clued up that many people do at that age, which is a good thing. I think you already have something extra to bring to the table.
I too have/had a big problem with the black issue. I don’t go for it at all. I suppose the only thing I can say about it is that it doesn’t affect my own life very much, it’s just something I object to, because I think black folk should have as many rights as whites… and I don’t like the idea of trying to justify something which I’ve never agreed with.
I’m trying to work out where I stand with things just now, and trying to stop being inactive. I hope I can hack it.
George wrote:One Sunday in High Priest’s, our instructor asked what our vision of eternity was. I opted for the Native approach, a Muscogean village next to a rushing stream, the forest full of animals behind. The patch of corn & veggies in the nearby sandy place, peach trees, the drums and sacred open ended shades in the town center. Family & loved ones laughing, cooking and singing and being together. There was no reaction to my vision for a full minute, till the instructor started clapping. Apparently I had made his lesson for the day. Some HPs disagreed I’m sure, but I was at peace.
I like that. My idea would be something along those lines. Maybe not a Muscogee village though, because I don’t know what one looks like!
Quote:One of the most difficult things about joining the church for my friend in Denmark was on this very topic. His father and mother both beat and sexually abused him as a child and to him families are a nightmare.
That is shocking, but I’m not surprised to hear that. Some families were good, and I was lucky with my parents in many ways, even if they were far from perfect. My father did cane me once or twice, and could be strict, but it was not something he enjoyed doing, and he also stuck up for me when I needed it sometimes, looked after me when I had night fears etc. (I was physically abused by teachers at school. No sexual abuse, thank God though) However, my mother and her mother didn’t get on. I never had much love for my grandparents, since I only knew one of them, and that one did hit me, and squash me into the floor etc. Their reasons for disliking me were complex I think.
Quote:I could not stand my mother in law while she was alive and was not able to do temple work for her after she died because I still had such bad feelings toward her. But, after all these years she may have really repented and changed in the spirit world….so I choose to hold judgment.
Just out of interest, what if relatives were not keen on the church in life? Are we supposed to think that they’ll all change their mind? I haven’t informed the church about my parents’ deaths as I am uncomfortable doing temple work for them for that reason (I’ve never been temple worthy, so it’s not something I’ve been asked to do yet.)
Quote:The witnesses were certainly of questionable mental stability.
So, when it comes down to it are 25-60% of all human beings. Many (most?) people in this world have suffered from it at some point. If every court witness who had/would later suffer from mental illness was disqualified, then the legal system would freeze up. It’s a matter of degree.
I wish people would stop talking about this as some kind of crime. Skeptics are particularly bad for this. Mental illness is an illness, not something evil, just like angina, arthritis etc. Even if someone with mental illness has some kind of spiritual experience I do not believe that it necessarily invalidates it.
This is a prejudice our society badly needs to get over. A friend of mine has particularly bad schizophrenia, and you should see the nonsense and ignorance he frequently has to put up with.
hawkgrrrl wrote:How do you feel about atonement and repentance?
I have to admit, I’ve never been quite sure what repentance is. I know it’s kind of regret, and not wanting to do something again, but I’ve long felt that it’s not something that can be forced, particularly if the sin in question feels good at the time (and unfortunately many of them do). Many times I think I’ve repented, and find myself at it again.
Forgiveness is the same. I don’t feel it can be forced.
Quote:As for archaeology, that’s a favorite topic of mine. I haven’t seen any BoM geographers propose an Atlantic crossing (though there may be some.) Everything I’ve seen is a Pacific crossing. John Sorenson has well documented many Pacific crossings in his book, and the Chinese may have crossed the Pacific to trade. Sorenson believes the dates of the Maya most closely match the BoM time period (800 BC-400 AD I believe). There are some Tree of Life motifs that seem a bit similar to Lehi’s vision, but the language similarities aren’t there. I’ve heard Uto-Aztecan may have some similarities with Hebrew but I’m not sure how strong they are.
At the risk of veering completely off topic (if I haven’t already). I think it did happen, although the Atlantic route was more used than the Pacific because of practicalities. I don’t think it was regularly crossed, as some have claimed, but I think some boats may have made it.
I heard somewhere of a story of a possible Mayan boat which had reached Iberia (the Mayans apparently used to sail around the Caribbean trading), and a few years back there was the story that a head off a small Roman statuette had been found inside a Mesoamerican ruin, in a location that it would have been difficult to plant it.
Columbus definitely wasn’t the first. Some folk think he wasn’t even the first Spaniard. The Basques claim that they were fishing and whaling in the Newfoundland banks before he reached Hispaniola. He’s probably the most significant voyager though, because he led to a mass colonisation by Europeans.
Quote:As I understand it, the Aztecs are from the Southwestern US rather than Central America, and I’m not sure how well the Aztecs fit the BoM timeline.
Mostly in Mexico – Mexico City was founded by them and is an Aztec name. I think some related tribes can be found in the south west states. A very bloodthirsty people!
Quote:
There has been some good BoM Old World archeological work. George Potter seems to have documented an ancient frankincense trade route in Saudi Arabia that Lehi probably followed, and believes he has found the River Laman along the trail. His website ishttp://nephiproject.com I also did a post on Nahom, which looks very promising. Seehttp://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/01/28 … of-mormon/There’s somebody claiming that they’re found an altar of Nahum isn’t that right? I heard about this in the last few weeks, and it’s actually one of the more impressive pieces of evidence for the BOM IMHO.
The one question for me is where would the river be? I think there is one thing that we probably should bear in mind here. Desertification and climate change. At some points in history, North Africa and the Middle East have been milder and had higher rainfall. Intensive grazing in recent years has made the situation worse.
Either that or it was a wadi (temporary watercourse) rather than a year-round river.
Quote:A little know fact is that Brigham Young had even less formal education than Joseph. Brigham fought against the idea of public schools because he didn’t see the value of them–funny that a 3 universities bear his name…. Some people believe his introduction of the Deseret Alphabet was one of the worst educational experiences ever, because it harmed immigrants ability to learn English.
English spelling is horrible, and I can understand why he did this. Unfortunately it also holds the language together. Otherwise it would split into several. It actually anticipated George Bernard Shaw’s ideas –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet The book I was reading on Brigham Young recently (pretty anti, but not completely) mentions that he retained certain Yankee-isms into his old age, particular features of dialect etc. I wouldn’t hold that against him at all. My own accent and speech are a bit “country”, and I think it adds color.
