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Me too. I have never been inside the SLC or Manti temples and will never see these. Could you imagine the Vatican ordering famous cathedral frescos to be painted over? Maybe the Chinese government, but they have been run by barbarians since Mao took over.
Utah has relatively little built heritage compared to, say, Europe. This is the worst type of correlation and cultural vandalism. The worst part is that they probably thought they were doing no wrong.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03/12/lds-church-removes/ Quote:In a blow to preservationists and many Latter-day Saints, historic murals in the iconic Salt Lake Temple — some that were painted by Mormon artists sent to study in Paris in the 1890s — have been removed during the ongoing renovation and will not be returned.
The same extraction also is planned for the pioneer-era Manti Temple, which houses one of Mormonism’s artistic gems — a “world room” mural painted by the famed Minerva Teichert, who studied at the Chicago Art Institute in the early 20th century.
Quote:“This feels like a huge and unnecessary loss,” said Haglund, former editor of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought. “We have many temples not functioning at full capacity, and the reasons the Salt Lake and Manti temples were so well-attended surely have much to do with their beauty and historical significance. The loss of that beauty cannot be compensated by increased efficiency.”
Quote:Patrick Mason, head of Mormon history and culture at Utah State University, said his “heart dropped” when he heard that the murals would be removed.
“These are priceless cultural artifacts that can never be replaced if destroyed,” Mason said. “The murals in the Manti Temple by Minerva Teichert, one of the few prominent female LDS artists of the 20th century, are particularly stunning, even if some of the artistic elements no longer conform to current cultural sensibilities.”
It is always good to have gratitude for something, especially in times like these when the world is full of negativty and fear. I have to remind myself to be grateful for the good things around me. Willhewonder wrote:.
2. I have not helped others here the way I have been helped, and I feel some angst about that. Maybe I can in the future.
At least you are aware of it. I have managed to help some people to an extent. Our current bishop had a few issues with church history some years ago, and I helped him. I think it is good to have someone in charge who understands that struggle.
As for #3 – this place is a hundred times better than Facebook or social media IMO. I have gone into why I think that elsewhere. Brief version – they are a lot less private and more aggressive.
I wish I had more money to give this board, but I am very worried about the near future. I had to go on welfare for the first time recently in middle age, and have been prevented from working by this crisis… Enough said about that, but you get the picture. I appreciate this board and I know it’s not perfect but it has helped me put a positive spin on my church membership. Despite everything, I am profoundly grateful that I became active in the church years before this crisis hit – not only has it saved me from total isolation, it has meant I have a calling which has put me in a position to help others.
I’d better put in a positive word here… F&T is our spiritual potluck dinner – sometimes it’s all lasagna, sometimes all quiche etc, but the positive thing is that it is possibly one of the few democratic parts of our church. Brigham Young once said the most moving testimony he ever heard was by a man with little education and halting speech. I can totally get that. But I feel guilty about laughing at the guy who talked about his testimony of the “Church of Mormon”… A bit cruel of me, I know. Our current President would notapprove. My ward’s F&T has changed a lot over the past twenty years. Back in the nineties, there were a lot of the “I know” testimonies, basically the same string of phrases strung together, and it did nothing for me. We also had lots of small children on the pulpit – I don’t miss that either. Most of those kids have moved on in more ways than one – some literally don’t live here anymore, others are inactive etc. It used to be a lot drier.
The other thing that bugged me was that people used to talk about the temple all the time… This was before I’d even been into the baptistry. I mean they talked
aroundthe subject of the temple, rarely giving any details, which was frustrating. When F&T is on at some chapel I’m visiting well away from my home ward, I’m always tempted to get up and say something really off the wall. I’ve never done so yet.
DarkJedi wrote:
(she also did the work for her long dead non-member husband and even though he rejected the church for 40+ years while married to her she’s positive he accepted the work). Then there’s the Latina with a thick accent who goes on for 10 minutes minimum and most of us don’t understand what she said (from what I’ve figured out that’s a good thing because apparently it’s mostly scolding).
We have an inactive Romanian member like that. He is very hard to understand, but complains no one speaks to him. No one dislikes him, it’s just hard to communicate and no one else speaks Romanian (we did have a missionary from there once). It’s a difficult situation.
As for temple work, I enjoy doing baptisms, and sealings, but I have never felt anything during an endowment even with my father and grandfather… Except once, my uncle – I definitely felt something then even though we had not seen each other in thirty years. Maybe we had a closer emotional link than I realised. A lot of people frown upon that work, and I wouldn’t even be allowed to do my uncle’s work now, since I’d have to get permission from my cousins, I’ve not heard from in forever.
Roy wrote:
I think that there are factors that limit/complicate consent even among adults.I think we have massive hypocrisy on the issue in the west. The mainline LDS is pro-monogamy or at least serial monogamy, but outside the church(es), the world encourages promiscuity. You can even live with more than one sexual partner publicly, like Hugh Hefner did and be a celebrity. But when it comes to “put a ring on it” (as Beyoncé says) then it’s a no no. Polyamory is okay according to the world, polygamy isn’t.
If the people are adults and not forced into it, I don’t have a huge problem with it.
The main problem with Green was the underage thing, which is inexcusable. The other problem is that he was not supporting his own children properly. (And yes, he should have supported his adult wives properly although some of them would be capable of getting work of their own.)
Quote:
There are some states that allow marriages of minors with the consent of the parents. I personally do not feel that this should be legal.
Well you can get married at sixteen here and join the army, but you can’t drive or vote. I used to know a couple who had married at sixteen and were happy decades later – the exception rather than the rule. I shudder when I think about some of the girls I was interested in as a teenager – I realise that it would have been a disaster if I had married any of them (I met a schoolfriend who had married one of them a few years ago – she turned out to be a very abusive spouse.)We have rampant teen pregnancy here among poorer people. It is very common to see fifteen year olds wandering around with a big bump (which is under the legal age). Very few sixteen to twenty year olds get married here although they produce plenty of babies. Some of the girls I see with babies are so young it is hard to know if they are their mothers or older sisters.
It’s not like they don’t know about contraception. We have very detailed sex ed. Too detailed some would say. But it hasn’t made much of an impact on this. We also have sky high STIs now among teens and twenty somethings esp. chlamidya.
Minyan Man wrote:
I’ve seen situations like this before. The message that comes across is: these are damaged & hurt individuals.My conclusion is: they have no one to talk to & they think this is an appropriate venue to talk about it.
IMO this is a desperate cry for help.
It’s a matter of balance I guess. My friend is active in ARP and AA, and when he gives his testimony he often mentions his experiences in recovery. However, how he does it is positive, and he has been able to help many people both in and out of the church with addiction issues.
Divorce is, unfortunately, a common issue. I’m glad I’ve not been in an F&T where it’s come up. I do have another friend who is semi-active who is currently going through one (delayed thanks to Covid). He often claims he has been abandoned by the church but that is not true. The current bishop (before he was called) helped him get to see his kids, the ward has helped repaint etc his apartment, and several people have met up with him and spoken to him about his troubles on numerous occasions. Yet he still complains, but thankfully not from the pulpit. His soon to be ex-wife lives in another stake, so it’s not like our ward or stake leadership can do much and I’ve had to tell him there is little else the church can do – there is no adultery involved.
We get a lot of visitors when we aren’t all under house arrest (like just now)… One of our common F&T is where someone uses their testimony introducing themselves, “I’m from Anyville, Utah/Idaho/California/Alberta etc”, and we will never see them again after they exit the building. Sometimes when someone dies, people will stand up and give their testimony of the person who just passed over – I don’t have a huge problem with that. The “Father” of our ward died late last year and we all loved him, so it was genuinely nice to hear tributes. None of us could attend due to restrictions bar his closest family, so people have paid trubute over Zoom.
The part of this story I never understood was the bombings. Forgery is common and, convincing forgery less common, but it normally doesn’t end up like this. Roy wrote:
SamBee wrote:
He married one (or two) of his wives when they were in their early teens.
It seems interesting to me that many of the modern polygamists seem to get in trouble for this. Law enforcement might have given them some peace if they had avoided crossing that particular line.
Yes, I think so. But it reminds me of how Al Capone was finally convicted on tax evasion not all the other stuff.
Personally I don’t have a huge problem with this. Abuse of minors is a serious issue, but consenting adults is another. He evidently did not look after his kids properly either.
Maumasaurus wrote:I think the way to start this is to be willing to be vulnerable yourself with your own brokenness. I frequently talk about mine in Relief Society and Sunday School. I talk about how I have dealt with depression, anxiety, the struggle I had when my daughter left the church and came out as pan-sexual. I have talked to the youth about the 20 years I stayed away from the temple due to anxiety, didn’t have a temple recommend, didn’t pay tithing, but eventually made it back and became an ordinance worker.
I can’t count the number of people who have thanked me for my willingness to share. The more open we are, the more open others will be when they realize they aren’t the only ones.
We have a member who openly admits to being a recovering alcoholic, and a member of the AA and ARP. He has done a lot of good.
I think the flipside of this is that there is a time and place to discuss these things. I once told a missionary about my struggles with depression and he dismissed them and told me that none of his friends or family had mental illness. I replied that they did – it’s just a matter of pure statistics – but that if he kept up that kind of attitude none of them would ever tell him about it. I also reminded him that dentistry, which he was going into after he returned, was one of the professions with the highest suicide rates. This elder said all this when he was my home too, which made it even more uncomfortable and I refused to let any other missionaries in there for months because of him. Part of me felt like physically throwing him out of my home, but I never acted on it.
I hope he is a bit wiser some years later. I could have reported him for this, and some nasty comments he made when he thought I was out of earshot but I never did. In his leaving speech at our chapel, he boasted about how his father had told him to “Return with Honor”, and that he would. His arrogance was actually pretty repulsive, but a few words from this crazy guy to his mission president etc could have derailed that “honor” and put him in hot water. Luckily for him, the crazy guy showed him more compassion than he ever showed me.
I don’t think I’ve fully forgiven him, but life moves on. He has never come back to visit the ward and I can’t even remember his name. I have met many good missionaries but he just left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’m afraid I can’t bring myself to watch Netflix after that Cuties scandal. It’s apparently still on there under its French title. The 1978 revelation which you can see quoted in my footer discusses how other religions have been given portions of the truth. Indeed like Muslims, LDS believe there have been many prophets sent to many people by Heavenly Father and not just Native Americans. If you look at Confucius for example, there are many things in his teachings which are in line with LDS ones – duty to family, honoring the dead and treating others with respect.
I’ve seen some examples of this in museums. It is beautiful. I suppose it arises out of the fact Japan is very earthquake prone. Regarding penance, I think it depends what it is for. Catholic friends tell me it is pretty basic if the sin is minor. I think with major issues, it is natural to expect another person to demonstrate their regret visibly. There are certain things which I have done in my past I wish I could atone for. It is hard when you no longer know a person you have wromged. With some of the uglier or crueller things I have done I feel I need to do penance for them for my own peace of mind.
Thanks folks. I will read these in more detail soon. I agree with On Own Now, I am not going to be talking much about physical wealth, especially at a time when many people don’t know if they’ll have a job next year. (Although most people have their heads in the sand about the economic situation.) DarkJedi wrote:
That’s a toughie. Too “prosperity gospel” oriented for my liking. I’d probably be inclined to go with a very Christ centered talk about how through the Savior (Saviour in your case
I’m planning on heading down this route.
Also I need to try and tread carefully around politics. We’re heading into wholescale worldwide economic collapse because of recent events, so I would like to say people need to get back to basics (rather than waiting.for governments and corporations to make horrific decisions for them). The food supply chain is also weakened by harvesting problems etc.
I know that sounds negative, but I aim to make this a positive talk.
AmyJ wrote:
Hi,You could go the “Money Can’t By Happiness” route, or perhaps focus on Christ’s teachings about money from the NT (the tax collector incident, “rending unto Caesar” story, “Widow’s Mite” story etc.). There is also contrasting earthy happiness (symbolized by money) vs heavenly happiness….
Those are just some of thoughts that came to mind.
I’m going to work on something broad and positive. My main worry is this turns into a “give us tithing” talk.
I will be praising our church’s opposition to gambling, discouragement of debt and addiction recovery programs, which I think are all good things.
Roy wrote:
Ouch! Poor Martin Harris lost a good chunk of his family farm in the deal. This was the same farm that he had inherited from his father.
I feel sorry for Martin. In another time and place, the Book of Mormon could have been a big seller.
I was interested in the idea Mrs Harris (Lucy? I forget.) may have been responsible for taking the 116 pages.
nibbler wrote:.
There’s also speculation that Lucy Harris burned the 116 pages. Maybe it was an attempt to put an end to the financial relationship between Smith and Harris and there never was a plan to make alterations in an attempt to expose Smith.
I find this very plausible. Didn’t Martin help bankroll the printing?
Still, Joseph Smith had many opponents even at this stage.
Minyan Man wrote:
In the age of google & YouTube, the church is forced to be open about the Endowment. The alternative isfalse information & anti propaganda.
That still goes on. Remember there are rumors about what happens in “open” spaces in other churches. There are stories of black masses in cathedrals and occult ceremonies. Then there are all those anti-Semitic stories which caused trouble from the Middle Ages to today – blood libel etc. Sometimes they are true, like the Catholic priest who was caught with two prostitutes on an altar recently.
It’s hard to prove a negative. Sometimes the distortions are funny. I like the story of someone who complained cattle would be kept in the temple – obviously they had seen pictures of the font with oxen underneath it. (Which I often point out to new visitors is described in the Bible and not a purely LDS invention)
Quote:Personally, I like the temple ordinances. It is something my wife & I can experience together. It is a place
that is peaceful & quiet. There are no televisions on. No political discussions.
I did have to tell off some people when I was in the celestial room once. They talked about how bad the traffic was for twenty minutes. I was in there pondering life’s questions, and it just wasn’t appropriate. Our temple is usually quiet during the week, and after the last session you can often get some time in there.
But the first time I went in the temple for baptisms, I felt peace for the entire duration. I had been undergoing a lot of stress and worry, and that fell away when I went in the door.
