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Roy wrote:

I would advise caution before changing things to be more palatable to the fringe disaffected, the inactive, or the non-member. It is possible that no policy change will bring these people back (or get them to convert in the case of the non-LDS), but any policy change faces the risk of upsetting the apple cart and your primary base of support.

I think this is why the church may never relax on the coffee/tea bit. It’ll upset the apple cart too much. From what I understand it was downright embarrassing to be a member in the 1970’s because blacks were not able to hold the priesthood. Social pressures like that are enough to make a policy change, but coffee/tea…. meh. Not so much.

[scooter]

Old-Timer wrote:

Make it iced coffee, and you can say honestly that you don’t drink “hot drinks”. 😆 (kind of like Pres. McKay eating rum cake because the WofW says nothing about eating alcohol)

The temple recommend question means one thing to most members, but it asks if you obey the Word of Wisdom – and the Word of Wisdom itself says “hot drinks”. Like pretty much everything else, I see this as up to the person being interviewed to answer according to the dictates of their own conscience – so, for me, I don’t drink coffee or tea. However, I know people who drink decaffeinated coffee and hold a temple recommend – and others who drink various teas and hold a temple recommend. In the end, they answer “Yes” to the question and don’t explain what they mean by that answer. In this case, “to each his/her own”.

I know I haven’t been on these boards for very long, but I didn’t see that one coming from you, Ray! I believe I am more closely following the dictates of my own conscience, but I’m sure things could get messy when my kids say to their primary teacher, “But my daddy drinks coffee!”

doug wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

… the Word of Wisdom itself says “hot drinks”

Section 89 of the D&C says “hot drinks”. The WoW they are asking about in the TR interview, while related to section 89, is not the same thing.

I see it the same way. To me, it’s pretty clear what their asking because of what is taught. I think “interpretation” is generally frowned upon. But I’m going to side with Ray on this one! 😆

[scooter]

Brian Johnston wrote:

I have a personal issue with the coffee, tea and caffeine stance in our current interpretation of the WofW. Because I was raised to believe coffee and tea have some intrinsic evil quality, I avoided them in my youth. Instead, I drank enormous amounts of caffeinated sodas over a long period of time (20 years or so). The 1 calendar year I spent at BYU, I drank over 125 gallons of Mountain Dew. I added it up once. Me and my pals would go 2 or 3 times a day across the street for a $0.25 refill at the convenience store. It was cheap, and I was a poor college student. My point is that I was going to consume caffeine, but instead of drinking a small amount of coffee, I drank a larger amount of soda that had seriously unhealthy amounts of refined sugar in them. Coffee was “evil,” but soda pop was “permitted.” 20 years later, I feel like my health was damaged because of my “obedience” to our specific interpretation over that period of time. Coffee would have been a lot less damaging.

I know. I know. The first thing people are going to say is “well you were addicted to caffeine, that was the problem.” I don’t deny that. The WofW didn’t help protect me from addiction though. It helped me choose a much less healthy delivery system for my drug of choice.

Holy mackerel. Facebook like this!!

Per Heber, I’m bumping this thread as I thought there was a lot of good stuff in it.

I’m not overweight, but I put on 10-15 lbs. in a short period of time due to the massive amounts of Mountain Dew Code Red I drank just to function at work (web/automation development). I was beginning to feel really unhealthy, had to get my suit pants let out, etc. Started drinking coffee and drank more water as a result and lost all the weight in about a month and started feeling good again. So I’m no longer drinking it, but yeah, I do seem to be taking exception to that part of the WoW (but the drugs, tobacco and alcohol parts totally make sense to me).

I too realize that I’m addicted to caffeine, but like Brian said, the WoW didn’t help me with that. The Church could take a strong stance on caffeinated sodas or relax the stance on coffee/tea, but chooses not to. Why??? Are they JUST keeping the coffee/tea thing going because it’s part of the Mormon identity now?

Is anyone out there a coffee/tea drinker AND a TR holder? I’m sure that would depend on the bishop’s POV on the WoW, but I really can’t imagine how one could be open about drinking coffee while holding a TR.

[scooter]

Thanks, Heber. I will bump that thread.

[scooter]

Brian Johnston wrote:

My recommended solution: Ignore him more.

Sounds good to me. :thumbup:

What do you mean by statistics?

[scooter]

hrc wrote:

Anyone able to explain what this was that left?

Nope, sorry. Can’t explain it either. When my SP said “I release you as a missionary” it was more of a turning of my stomach – hardly a spiritual experience like you had. I was a good missionary, wasn’t always the most effective, but I worked hard, did my best and all.

I have had, however, a very powerful experience like you had. When I was 14 years old and studying Moroni in seminary, I tried the promise and had a VERY strong burning in the bosom. Very peaceful yet excited, warm and very strong. Undeniable really. I went on to do all the crazy stuff that crazy teenagers do, and did a complete 180 when I decided to serve a mission. I’ve had meaningful spiritual experiences since then, but not like the one when I was 14. So I think about that at times, and I feel like it’s anchored me too – that and other reasons of course.

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doug wrote:

Congratulations! Make sure you give them their money’s worth. 😆

I like this. :thumbup:

Mike wrote:

Is there a chance, he was joking around?

No, no chance of that.

SilentDawning wrote:

We have all learned here that to be a full-fledged member of the community, your unorthodox beliefs or faith bare spots can’t be nakedly exposed — or you will lose opportunities and your options will be narrower.

So I never pipe up in EQ, and that’s probably for the best. I’m not very good at tactfully framing my thoughts into TBM-speak. Not quite sure what you mean what all being a ‘full-fledged member of the community’ entails, but I think I’m settling into a good rhythm with a SS calling and flying under the radar a bit, but I feel like reaching out just to be part of the community. I guess I just have to try to build on non-church related stuff, which should be doable in my ward.

[scooter]

Roy wrote:

1) I don’t like the term “overcome” – as though somebody could read the book and be cured.

Good point, Roy. I like ‘working through’ a faith transition/crisis/struggle better than ‘overcome’. I think ‘overcome’ implies a return to 100% orthodoxy, which may not be the best thing for any given individual.

[scooter]

During this time that I’m struggling to make sense of everything, I’m finding that I don’t like labels very much (which is funny, because I used to have no problems with them). For me, unorthodox seems ok, but I was talking with my wife today and she said something about my ‘transition’. I’m not sure I even like the term transition, because right now, I’m uncomfortable thinking that I’m transitioning TO . I know we’re always in transition to something, but for some reason, I’m more comfortable with what I’m going through to be called a ‘struggle’.

[scooter]

I think this is a great idea. I agree with Brian that it would be popular (and I do a lot of good IMO) if it leaned towards people staying in the church. A big undertaking for sure – could it be a collaborative effort?

[scooter]

wayfarer wrote:

Jesus, in Luke 17:21 wrote:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Funny how the LDS Correlated Guide to Scriptures didn’t mention this verse in explaining the Kingdom of God as being the church.

What’s your take on the JST of these verses?

Jesus & Joseph Smith wrote:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God has already come unto you / is among all of you.

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Featherina wrote:

scooter wrote:

I considered church teachings as possibly related to cognitive distortions…

Wow, thanks Featherina. Those are some good and very interesting points. One thing that really gets my blood boiling (and I’m not quite sure if it fits in with one of the cognitive distortions you mentioned) is the way stories/examples of members or families is/can be taken completely out of context to show how righteous members should aspire to be. Conversely, members can really latch onto these stories and focus on the wrong things and ignore the big picture.

[scooter]

My take on this is that the church gives this counsel as a general rule. The church always gives counsel that will preserve the church. I think the brethren know that there are very financial savvy people out there and that they will use financial leverage (read: debt) when appropriate. For the general membership though, the counsel to stay out of debt should keep family financial pressures from getting out of control, and reduce the risk of tithing loss.

During the tithing lessons, I have a hard time with those people that say they paid tithing without knowing how they were going to eat that month, because I’ve been in a position in which it was pay tithing and begin accumulating debt on a credit card, or skip paying tithing – and I chose the latter. After a few weeks of guilt I realized that it was the right thing to do for my family. I see value in the law of tithing, but I think it’s very easy for people to find themselves in a position of accumulating debt to pay tithing. That’s essentially paying interest on tithing. That’s a bad deal.

But I think the advice to stay out of debt is much like a lot of other advice from the church, and is geared towards self-preservation.

[scooter]

Roy wrote:

I would also caution against changing most behaviors. I for one attend church with the family every week, hold a calling, and wear my “G’s” day and night, but when I was invited to a night out with “the guys” and the invite said BYOB – DW thought I might come home drunk. When I looked at her askew and said, “Sweetie, I don’t drink.” Her response was, “Well everything else seems to be changing with your religious beliefs. How am I to know what is next to go?” The point being that your spouse may fear you going completely off the rails, and I would advise not adding fuel to the fire of these fears.

Roy

Wow. Thanks for that advice. I did have a sit-down with my wife and she was pretty bummed that I had kept my thoughts and the act of drinking coffee from her. She wanted me to stop, and I did. I was even planning on her wanting that. I’m sure that I’ve stated some of my feelings of dissatisfaction with the church, but she appreciated hearing it from me in more direct terms. Something that resonated with her is that I just don’t need or want people/institutions telling me what to do, think or believe. I’m tired of that.

What surprised me is that she doesn’t really have any concerns with how this is all going to affect our marriage. I’m still very much the same person she married and like you, I fully plan on maintaining the same lifestyle we’ve always had and even attending the temple. Although she read your post and said, “Yeah, I totally get where she’s coming from.” Much like I feel relieved to find this forum, I’m very relieved to be able to talk to her about it and it seems to be opening even more discussion about spiritual matters and the church, which is always good.

[scooter]

On Own Now wrote:

Scooter,

Welcome. I found this site not that long ago myself, and like you, it was just such a relief to feel like I wasn’t the only one. I enjoyed your perspective, and hope to hear from you on an ongoing basis.

Couple of thoughts.

On talking to your wife… and later, with your kids… Family secrets aren’t good. I encourage you to be open. However, I think are are wise not to “unload” on her. I am very very glad that I took a stance early on, that I wasn’t going to try to convince anyone else to believe like me. I had my “faith transition” (a term that Brian uses, and which I find very satisfying and soothing back in the 90’s… I’ve been able to walk the tightrope, and my wife is still a fully believing member. Had I tried to force her to “see the light” I think that would have been very damaging to her, and likely would have resulted in a much less favorable situation. I’m open with her (and my adult kids) that I don’t believe, but I never ever ever try to convince them. That is their decision. We do talk about cultural issues. I don’t like the marginalization of women, and we talk about that freely. But I don’t get into matters of doctrine or past faults of the church… like polygamy, because that could only serve as an argument why she should break with the church, and that’s not something I want for her, because she doesn’t want it for herself. I try also, to be respectful of the church and her beliefs. I’m married to her… I live with her… I love her… so there is no other way I can be, but to be accepting of her faith.

On wading into the previously-forbidden actions with gusto… This is a tough one. I would suggest that you resist the urge to go do all the things you’ve kept yourself away from because of the church. You may eventually do them, but I wouldn’t do it on an impulse. Let your mind/spirit settle to where you are comfortable, and see where you land. I believe what you’ll find is that many things make sense and are worthwhile apart from the church dictating it as a commandment from God. If you drink coffee now, it doesn’t matter, but if you start smoking/drinking/getting tattooed, and having sex with your coworkers, you might find that where you land isn’t where you would have chosen to land. That’s the self-centered way to look at it (what’s best for you), but an equally, maybe more, important way to look at it is how this affects your family. I would venture to guess that your wife didn’t sign up to be married to someone that throws back a couple of beers every night after dinner. Is drinking evil? No. But if it will make your wife uncomfortable, then you shouldn’t do it out of love/respect/deference to her. One trick I use on myself is to remind myself that I’m the one who changed, not my wife, so the burden should be mine, not hers.

Thanks for your thoughts. All good advice, and I will heed it. I know it’s hard to tell from my posts, but I’m totally with you. Like I said, I’m sort of all over the place right now with my posts. I have absolutely zero plans to take up smoking, drinking, tattoos, sleeping around, or really any significant change in lifestyle. The coffee began as a result of very little sleep due to babies (actually our dog too!). It was just too much for me one day and I had to be able to focus while at work.

And I will fully respect all her beliefs. And I didn’t THINK I was keeping a ‘family secret’, just wanting to not frighten her and make her think I was suddenly anti-mormon or something like that. But when you put it THAT way….yeah, I should probably sit down with her. Thanks again!

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