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“This feeling I can have, when I want it, how strong I want it and how inspiring I want it, all depends on my state of mind and heart – and it has not a ‘religious only’ dependancy. This feeling has different names for different people, in the church we call it the Spirit. Whether I’m inside or outside the church I can feel it however much I want. The church provides more opportunities to feel it just because the focus of the church IS to feel it. But really, it is all about how I think of things whether I feel it or not. I can have a fantastic spiritual experience just marveling at the magnificence of a tree – and it is the same feeling as I have in the church. So, I don’t think the Spirit is ‘religious’, I think it is a human condition that we all have the power to experience.” Sorry it has taken awhile to post a reply to your reply to my reply. I agree that the spirit can be felt anytime. I have also noticed in life though that the spirit hits more powerful during some moments than others. The most powerful is when I have helped someone else out, shared the gospel or hometeaching. Also I felt the spirit very strongly when my first child was born, during baptisms and in the celestial room and when I was set apart as a missionary. I do feel the spirit a little stronger during sacrament meeting than the rest of the week, though the feelings of the spirit are always there even if just subtle when I am out in nature or chilin with the family or friends. This difference in the intensity of the spirit tells me that the stronger I feel the spirit, the more important what I am doing is to God. I do not think the spirit is just here for our enjoyment and comfort, though the spirit is the comforter and that part of the job description. I think the spirit even more is a sort of positive reinforcement from God, or a ATA boy, to let me know to I am doing what I should be doing, or what am witnessing is dear to God, or to keep on doing what I am doing.
You mentioned that it bothers you in the church about how the missionaries act and how unqualified people are put in positions to make decisions that should be made by professionals. I completely agree about the missionaries. The way they break people down and pester them tell they join just to get the missionaries off their backs to me again is the doctrines of the world mixed with the way of God, or tactics of the sales world that is so prevalent in missionary work. I called statistical revelation when missionary feel over and over again that people are ready to be baptized when they are not. I do not think that this means that missionary is not guided from the top, it is, but I think it means it is time for the church to get this part of the house in order.
As far as the ecclesiastical leaders making decisions needed for the pros, I have mixed feelings on this. The problem is that many of the professionals make just as bad or worse decisions with their clients than the church leaders do. Granted these are not all mormon professionals but some of them are. Doctors that are little more than legal drug pushers and work for practices that are so profit driven that they spend no more than five minutes per patient. Counselors that tell people only what they want to hear so that they will keep getting their business and keep coming back for the meds, when these people really need to be told because of their own decisions they are screwing up their life and the meds only provide an escape from the problems they need to fix but are too out of it to take responsibility for their crap. These same clients purposely hide information from their therapists so they do not put themselves in a bad light. Whereas most Bishops, using the spirit of the discernment, would detect that something is not right and these people would need to get their spiritual lives in order which would then fix the big problems in their lives.
The thing that ecclesiastical leaders have that the professionals don’t the spirit of discernment. It is freaky how good some of them are. On my mission, it took me awhile to get my motive from that aspiring for leadership to one of truly being out there for the betterment of others. My mission president could discern immediately where my heart was when I did not even have to open my mouth, whether for good intent or not so much. I think many Priesthood leaders can do a better job than the professionals in regards to marriage counseling because they can bring the spirit in. Often with spouses who want to split, they are very much stuck in natural man mode and exposing the sins of their spouse mode and very lacking in the spirit. One effective thing I heard of Bishops doing is simply having him and the couple sing three or four hymns and then the couple does not feel like fighting anymore because the spirit has replaced their prideful feelings and they are very much more likely to take responsiblity for their own actions. On the other hand mistakes a number of Bishops I know make is that they automatically take the side of the spouse in their ward, if the couple is separated, instead of recognizing that everyone involved has played a big problem in the marriage falling apart. I feel that church leaders need and should get training in counseling and personality types, to understand people better and that this would help them to make more inspired decisions in a lot of cases. I don’t think that because the professionals lack the spirit of discernment in the same way that the Bishop has it, that this would actually be a step down-possibly. Yes, some improvements would definite help.
Quote:“Now I feel that I’m looking past the church, so to speak, and am looking for a more peaceful, natural and connected way to live. I guess, I’m having trouble with the whole church organization and culture, how the church views God and the gospel, and especially how members view and treat each other. I don’t want to be a part of an organization when I completely disapprove of its beliefs, methods and the delivery of teachings.”
Questions, do you feel the spirit or no when you are participating in ordinances? I have posted on here for a number of weeks. I feel that sometimes people put themselves in a box of this is what Mormons do on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc. I feel connected on Sunday in worship, and I love connecting to God on Sunday. However, I am not a typically Mormon and I do not have an outlook like many. I am out foraging weeds that are healthy and trying new recipes several days a week and connecting with nature in a way that is very personal to me. I like to do things for other people as well not because the church says do service to gain converts, although I wouldn’t mind that either, but because there are so many problems people do not give a flip about and so many people want to just sit on the couch and eat chips and watch their show and life is just peachy. I feel that a big problem personally comes when any society swings way too conservative or way too liberal. Because almost all church members are staunch conservatives-I will address this one; I feel that conservatisim for so many has become “why do I have to help them, they got themselves into their mess, they can get themselves out! Why do I need to care. am I my brothers keeper?” And often the business competition models get dragged into church and then church members can end up competing for who knows what. There are many good mormons who are horrible christians. Just curious of what bothers you about church organization? Can the church and the gospel be true even when the organization at some levels needs to be modified or can the ordinances still be true? I think they can. Let me know your take.
Heres some things I see from what you have said and from my own experience. You posed the question of how to stand strong in your beliefs, but you also mentioned that are losing interest in the church, so obviously you are trying to figure what you want right now. I think first you need to tackle the pornagraphy issue before in order to make some decisions with a clear head. Remember that Gandi would fast and pray many days before making important decisions, in order to purify himself and to recieve guidance. Why do I say that? Well, I have had a couple of bouts with porn in my life and it seems sometimes the times when it feels like it is needed are times it should be most avoided. No, struggling with porn does not mean that you will go to hell automatically, that you will molest someone, or that you will have no control over your choices as hinted by some GAs and authorities in the past. I do feel it is a drug that ones need more and more to get that same high, and yes there is a definite rush or high with it and you definitely feel worse after it is over, over time. It does affect in more subtel ways though. When I first moved out west, I got into porn somewhat as a young teenager for a little over a year. I noticed that I started comparing myself to everyone at school. I dropped my friends because they were no longer cool enough for me and the only kids I thought that were good enough to be around me were the ultra popular. The only problem was I was not good enough to be in their group so I decided that I would just be by myself, not very social and pretty prideful. At the same time I envied others a lot because they were better at sports, or smarter or recieved more attention. Later, during another bout with porn for a little bit, I noticed that I was comparing my spouse to other women in the ward, which was not fair to her. I say this because you seem like you are comparing yourself a lot to those around you who you mention are snobs and may very well be, and therefore dealing with some pride and envy issues right now and I feel that this likely adding to your self-esteem issues and not feeling as good as you could about yourself right now. I know it may seem challenging not see how others have been going places in the two/three years since graduation why you may not feel you have as much to show for this time and you may feel judged by others wondering why a member of the stake presidency’s son isn’t going on a mission; but the ball is in your court, however. There is a reason that Christ dealt with the tempation of appetite- the stone to bread, before he dealt with the tempation of pride vs reality as pointed out Covey in Spirtual roots of human relations. Things like this tend to have a big impact on our relationships. I think when you close the distance between you and God you will not care so much what others think of you, but what you feel about you according to your internal compass will matter a lot more.
Porn seems to be the most alluring to those who are isolated, like me right after a move and not having many friends, and those who are looking to feel a void in their lives. Of course a lot of people do it because they like it and see nothing wrong with it. I later realized how the porn industry chews people up and spits them out, and exploits them, how it is not like real physical intimacy. Hard porn with its emphasis on just penetration, and no real embracing- so unlike physical intimacy. C’mon we are all adults here. I am never going back to that hardcore porn crap.You need to realize as well that things like porn will influence your attitude and how you feel about your relationship and need for God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I noticed for me that when I was on it, my relationship with God was not that important, and church seem less interesting, but when I got rid of it, in time, my connection to God and feeling of the need for the atonement became strong again. The Book of Mormon gives a great example of how choices affect perspective. In Alma 39-43, Alma the younger gives doctrine to his son Corianton, because Corianton had some doctrinal issues with the plan of salvation which were influenced by the choices he had made. No, you looking at porn is not close to sins of Corianton, but Satan does influence our perspective when we are doing things that diminish our spirituality, like making a desire to have a strong connection with God appearing more pointless. Many Ward members on this forum have discovered troubling things about church history and mistakes of prophets and apostles while making great sacrifices for the gospel. While still maintaining a strong connection with God, they can still have that strong connection while having those differences, but you seem to be negative not for any doctrinal reason, but just take issue and just because. I do find that a little troubling. You have not mentioned prayer, or meditation or any kind of divine inspiration as a source to make your decisions, but conversely focus on how everyone percieves you. The Lord works from the inside out, let him change you so that this envy and comparison is rooted out of your heart and replaced with God’s love.
If you let go of the pornagraphy and get a strong connection with God, does that mean that the mission will be the obvious right choice, not necessarily, but with a cleared head I think your direction that will be best for you will be more obvious. Will taking this step make you all of the sudden into just a happy person with great self-esteem, it not that simple, but you will have more peace of mind. I can tell you in college, it is pretty challenging not to look at girls like a peace of meat, when you are on that stuff. And yes counseling I think is also very needed for you for self-esteem. Do not worry about the stupid Mormon time line- going on a mission, getting married at 22, and 6 kids by 30; it is a ridiculous expectation. Do what you feel is right for you after seeking God’s guidance, for with God as your constant companion, you cannot go wrong. I know this likely sounds kind of preachy but you are making some big decisions right now, you need God in your corner.
I won’t drag this post on anymore since I think we both feel we have thoroughly worn it out. I would say though that the switch to a diet with very little animal products has not been as big a shift as my wife and I have thought and the life style is not really that different. We got burnt out on bean dishes really fast, but we have found better tasting replacements. We have replaced our reg cheese with almost cheese, milk with almond milk, and of course veggie burgers, tofu mayonaise. We have to say that most things are not really that different, soy salad with tofu mayonaise taste a heck of a lot like chicken salad. A lot more salads, and whole grain cereals and quinoa dishes. Be more important we eat a lot more cultural dishes, food that is more adventorous, which is a lot different than the standard american 7 dish rotation diet. I know you didn’t ask for this info and a lot of members of this ward are probably rolling their eyes, but I just wanted to put the info out there if anyone gets to the point where the doctor wants them largely off their meat because of heart disease or other reasons, their are ways out their have healthy food that tastes good. There are a number of desserts as well that are can healthy and taste. There are some meats that have good effects like those with omega 3s, salmon etc. And Oysters have are loaded with minerals that are sometimes hard to get in other sources. I cooked an awesome Tucson, veggie and bean soup tonight, olive garden quality, with a 7 leaf salad, arugula, raddichio, butterhead, romaine, spinach. Take care 🙂 wornoutsneakers wrote:yes i do tend to focus on and analyze on problems and i have a tendency to be very serious. For example, i take my calling very serious and get my work done as early as possible. Im always looking for ways to cut costs in the annual budget and ways to include member missionary work. I found in the beginning that i had a hard time fitting in. I really struggled with being assigned a calling. I was so put out over that. I have since discovered that i truly had a hard time with authority. After blaming everyone from the sisters i worked alongside in my callings, to my irresponsible attitude, to my lack of knowledge about church matters…
I can relate. I am a very driven person. I have always been working on gaining qualifications or degrees as a school teacher and since I did not feel I was reaching my potential I switched to the career path of a nurse practitioner which I am currently pursing because I am generally discontent with standing still. The challenge is that I am not always very content with my circumstances and I have gotten very frustrated when I haven’t reached my goals. Along with this, it has been very frustrating when those in the church haven’t been as motivated in the church as I thought I felt about the gospel. As a missionary, I was frustrated when members did not help us with referrals and generally in missionary work. As an Elder’s quorum president it was frustrating for me when in a branch of mostly high priest group age members, people did not want to fellowship new members, do home/visiting teachers or even befriend anyone at all outside of close family or friends- a general sense of retirement in the gospel. This was hard, because it did not leave hardly any one but and a few others who want to move the gospel forward.I can say that it was hard for me to reactivate and do missionary work here, because I knew that so much would be demanded of these people once they joined the church often before they were ready in a unit that did not have much to offer as far as programs or unit support in the church which is so needed by new members. It almost seemed like I was sending people to failure. Even now, I want to get out there and be more involved in the front lines of helping those in need from broken situations, investigators, etc than it seems that most church members want to.
Now that I am just a teacher on Sunday in my new ward, I have noticed some things. I feel the spirit more powerfully since I do not so much to worry about on Sunday, who is at sacrament, is everything set up for lessons, meetings, etc. It is very to nice to just take the spirit of the ordinances, sacrament, the spirit of collobaration with the saints without expectation of other church members, and also the spirit of reading scriptures and prayer without thinking how I will use the scriptures to strengthen the somewhat limited understanding of churchmembers who seemed stuck. In essence, it is nice just to worry about me right now and enjoy my relationship between myself and God, the Atonement and feelings of the spirit.
The church has some black spots, really big, even recently we know, but despite this the ordinances are what we need and that where we feel the spirit that we know the gospel true and needed. I might suggest that you focus on yourself right now and strengthening your relationship with God, and block out the fact anyone else in there in sacrament meeting, because it is really between just you and God. Really immerse yourself in the scriptures and temple ordinances for you and I might even suggest reading Jesus the Christ, I found the real principles of the gospel. Its a tough one as far as who to hang out with, because I know it is hard for singles and new members. Are there other new members in the ward, or investigators? I have found that sisters tend to relate well to one another whether they are single or not, but your ward may be different. There has to some more open minded, maybe more liberal minded, or generally women who just like to socialize that you can connect with.
Does the gospel help you feel more spiritual and peaceful, yes. Does it completely change everyone of one’s attitude, negative or not, not necessarily. However, I found being a driven person that I have needed something more to settling the feeling of dreariness that I get in the week of sometimes when I have a hard time simply enjoying what I have and just enjoying life. I don’t like medications so for me I took the herbal route, I have found borage oil, and some other good herbal supps are powerful anti-depressants. In college I was on wellbutrin, a regular anti-depressant. Whether you want to go the normal route or holistic, I feel that anti-depressants can do a lot for type a personalities. I did not get married til late, but I know if would be hard for me to be in a family as a single, and not feel a bit awkward about it.
There are also answers for many of the negatives things you found that we all have to make sense of. I would really take the time to look at both sides and the in the middle of these issues that bother you. Once trust is tore down, just like you wouldn’t feel comfortable around guys that creep you out, you are not going to feel the spirit as much until your trust is rebuilt. It is important to build your intellectual testimony to the degree of truth that will help you overcome the things you are dealing with and of course prayer is important along with this. This is a long post but I hope it might help.
I know there is a lot of hard things to accept that you mentioned. I would think if racism is bad, then despite Brigham Young’s racism, the Lord would intervene and say you need to course correct here. But it did not happen that way. It is hard to put these two together when we believe so hard that the prophet will never lead us astray. I think this shows that the average church members have just as influence and has just as much ownership of the Church as the prophet and apostles. If the church members would have had no tolerance for racism at the time, than there is no way Brigham would have slipped that one through and everyone was alright with it. Members who have the spirit and the right information cannot be led away even from the prophet. When asked about this Brigham said “If he (God) should suffer him (Joseph) to lead the people astray, it would be because they ought to be led astray…it would be because they deserved it…” “I have universelly exhorted the people to obtain a living witness each for themselves ; then no man can lead them astray”. Brigham even stated as much that there is a possibility that the prophets might lead the people astray “..if I were to preach false doctrine, it would not be an hour after the people got out that the people would fly to one another and say “I do not quite like that! It does not look exactly right!” It seems weird to me but I think if there was a time to set the racial record straight, then 19th century Utah would have been perfect for it with the Church having almost total cultural control. But it didn’t happen. The Lord is there to give direction and clarify on belief in Christ, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, enduring to the end. The Lord did not seek to change the social institutions in Christ’s time either, even though Christ was the Son of God. I see that the Church could take a stand on issues that they need to when they do not, like a minimal meat, most plant based diet as stated in D&C 89, and less unhealthy competition in the business world, and only recently have they advocated much more fully the place for Gays in the church and the full benefits of the gospel for women. Occasionally the brethren have taught outside the circle of acceptability of the saints, but mostly it seems they teach in the circle, which is mostly conservative values with generous portions of good deeds, sprinkled with mercy, charity, forgiveness, understanding. When it should really be generous portions of Christlike attributes sprinkled with some conservative and liberal values because the gospel should not lean, it should take the best of all views. I do have to say that of late, the brethren have been teach more towards the middle of mercy and the law, though this still needs to come down to local leaders more fully. This is just to say that the saints had more of the spirit, and more of a well rounded and full view of Christ, then the apostles and prophet would too because they would not allow the brethren to vere too much to one side of their personal views like Ezra Taft Benson did in the 60s. This is not to say that the revelations of D & C and the BOM and from conference are not inspired, but I feel that if the saints were more intune with the Lord, study things out for themselves more, than the circle of what is acceptable would more in line of what is ultimately acceptable to the Lord. As members we have a big responsibility to keep the church on track in any age and time. Just some questions. Are you naturally more of a person that focuses and analyzes problems more than everything is always sunshine and roses? I only say this because I know I am more of a serous attitude type person, than a I am so grateful and everything is great type attitude person and it has been interesting learning to grow in our church that is very hard lined. Just trying to find out more about you. DevilsAdvocate wrote:It looks like Joseph Smith simply took what was already most convenient and affordable for many people at the time anyway and then tried to attach some mystical significance to it as if this was just the way it was supposed to be and what God intended from the beginning. It would definitely complicate things to not have refrigeration and other modern technology and have to be butchering animals all the time whenever you wanted to eat meat so it’s no surprise that people back then would probably have even more of a tendency to get caught up in the cult of austerity and preach this idea as a supposed universal ideal than they do now.
This sounds like a reasonable view except that it is based on faulty assumptions.This assumption that D & C 89 was peddled by JS based on 19th century bias on eating is inaccurate, because the view of the times was not leaned towards a plant based, small meat diet. Meat has always and still is viewed as the food of the strong and affluent and beans the food of the dirt poor. This stems back from the middle ages and much earlier. During the middle ages, the Kings and upper class men ate mutton and venison because they were the only ones with rights to hunt on public land, while the peasants ate the same fava beans and porridge every night with no spices, and very bland. One of the reasons why people were so eager to move to America was because of its vast resources of fishing, hunting, lands for pigs, sheep and cows and crops, whereas Europe was overfishing, and game very scarce due to the overpopulation. In this century, the view has been that people in poor countries are so weak and small because they do not consume animal protein like us rich countries. Suprisingly, studies have come to vastly different conclusions. I serously doubt the early saints, or anyone in this country advocated for a diet of minimal animal meat consumption, this would have been unamerican at the time. Now today, we still fight this war of the right information, because for every study that is found to validate an unrefined plant based diet, the industry hired their own industry advocated scientist, who get the results that the Dairy and Agriculture industry wants. Very few people realize how much money is fed to government from the meat and dairy industries, of course their is a huge conflict of interest here. This smear campaign is the same way the cigarette companies fought the studies on tobacco for decades and decades.DevilsAdvocate wrote:However, the truth is that people lived as hunter/gatherers much longer than they have had developed agriculture so it doesn’t make sense to me why we should expect that everyone would quickly adapt to some of the radical and more recent changes in diet especially enough to make something like wheat of all things the “staff of life” that people should supposedly base their entire diet around when it only grows well in specific temperate climates. We already know that there are genetic differences in terms of what health problems some people are more susceptible to than others so I don’t see what is so unusual about the fact that some people are more vulnerable to overeating and the impact of certain types of carbohydrate foods than others. Basically it looks to me like D&C 89 has it backwards and it would actually be a better idea in general for people to plan their meals around some source of protein and eat grains and potatoes sparingly, if at all, because that’s what will typically satisfy their hunger longer.
Again, this is another faulty assumption. Hunting, just does not pay off on a regular basis for that to be a main staple. It was really a lot more gathering than it was hunting. The great apes of primarily gatherers.If it were true that humans were hunters gathers than it would show in our body plan. Chimpanzees are 95% vegatarian with way bigger canine teeth than we have. Their only protein really is terminites and some other bugs. If we were hunters for so long than our body would have adapted natural-selected for these traits for this diet, our teeth more pincer-like, not more deer like, our cheekbones more dog-like, not reduced, as they our now. Form follows function, that’s how evolution and adaptation works. I feel that the meaning is more important than the literal word for word verse in D & C when it comes to grains, it is clear that grain and herbs of the field are very important, be it wheat, rice, oaks, corn, or whatever.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:That’s part of the problem; even when I went out of my way to eat whole grain bread and cereals, brown rice, etc. I continued to gain weight. Sure I gained even more when I was eating fast food all the time and drinking soft drinks loaded with sugar but even when I tried to diet and exercise I only ended up losing a few pounds and I felt hungry all the time so I would never stick with it for very long. So far the only way I have been able to control my weight in a lasting way is by eating more meat, not less. My recent health check-ups haven’t shown any obvious problems in terms of cholesterol, glucose, kidney and liver function, blood pressure, etc. and personally I doubt this would be the case if I hadn’t started paying more attention to the amount and type of carbs I was eating.
A vegeratarian diet does not mean a good diet. Some vegetarian diets are worse than animal protein based ones. A good diet is 90% of ones diet being foods that whole grain, fruits, and vegetables and highly processed foods, dairy, meats and junk to less than 10% of ones total calories. If you really want to see what a diet of unrefined plants foods will do for you than I suggest completely getting on it for three months and see what it does and how you feel and also look at your cholesterol now and weight and compare it in three months. Just incorporating whole grain breads and cereals, while leaving everything else the same is like going from 6 packs of cigarettes to 4 and expecting to see all of the benefits of no smoking, you have to go all the way.This especially important if you going to based your whole testimony of the Word of Wisdom on your own anecdotal experience just a couple of experience when you have not accounted for all of the factors going into the before and after. Eating on the mission is the worst diet in the world and it typical for missionaries to look light they should be in the high priest group and then lose the weight when they get home no matter what diet they are on. You probalby could have been on the pancake and eggs diet and lost a lot of weight after the mission. Meats and dairy just do not have the whole package-antioxidants, micro and phyto nutrients, Folate, Vits A-K, calcium, iron, potassium. With meats you get Vits A, the Bs and Iron and thats it. On the unrefined plant food diet, it is normal for your LDL, bad cholesterol to go down to 80. Many doctors are happy if your LDL is below 130 because as a nation everyone Cholesterol is so bad that not real bad is seen as good, when it shouldn’t. Your doctor will probalby be happy if you are hovering around being overweight and just not obese, but the unrefined plant food diet takes people back to their high school weight, if they were skinny then.
Caldwell Esseltyn, MD, was given 17 no hope cases of people with heart disease,to test the unrefined plant food. These people had months to live, and they too far gone for stents and bypass surgery to help them. 15 years later, all but one was a live and healthy. This groups average total cholesterol, ldl +HDL, dropped from 257 to 137. Someone show me a meat based diet that can reverse heart disease, the number killer in our country, like that. Dr. Joel Fuhrman treats his patients almost exclusively with a plant based diet approach and his patience typically lose so much weight that relatives and friends wonder if they are healthy. This is normal, our country is just so fat we do not know what normal looks like anymore. The Gershon institute, founded by Charlotte Gerson, MD, have helped thousands recover from the deadliest cancers, diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune disease, arthiritis, etc. In fact, their survival rates for stages 4 melanoma patients is 39% compared to 6% regular, stage 3 survival rate was 74% compared to 24-47% normally. These are huge increases considering that the therapy is fighting a life time of bad eating habits and melanomas late stage low survival rate. Where is a meat based diet that can do that. I do not sell any products, I do not get any money or benefit in any way from this kind of information getting out other than I know people will get better. We are a nation of largely fat and sick people. It is embarassing to walk into church and see how many people are overweight. Our church largely does not keep the Word of wisdom. It is a combination of way too much animal products, empty carbs and processed foods
Vegans do live longer than omnivores. Studies show that humans are designed to live on a certain amount of calories. High calories diets, omnivores and carnivores, generally have shorter lives sometimes by decades because high amounts of calories speed up the life process of the body. Low calorie diets, herbivores, Seventh day adventist etc. have shown to increase life span because lower calories do not wear out the cells of the body as fast. Of course genes are a factor as well. You are comparing apples and oranges here. Yes, sugar from refined carbs, white bread, white pasta, white rice, sugary cereal, sugary fruit juice- of course these will spike blood sugar levels way up. Let me repeat, these are not part of a unrefined foods diets, and these are just as bad as a high amount of high animal product diet. The body does not get a high sugar spike from unrefined plants foods, unless someone is just downing fruit all the time. Unrefined grains, vegetables, some fruits, beans, these are plants that take longer for the body to digest than meats. Starch is a much smaller part of their make then the refined junk foods, because unrefined also has fiber and a lot more to it than just starch. The starch that is in the foods is released much more slowly over time and so there is no sugar rush spike because it is a little given slowly. The body is made to run mostly on glucose, sugar, given over time with amino acids from protein and lipids from fat making a a small part of the diet, 8% for protein is fine and likely the same for fat. Starches have been what civilazation have fed on since the dawn of time and our affluent disease have not shown up til the last century. First, only 10% or less of Americans suffer from a wheat allergy of some kind. There are lots of grains besides wheat that have better nutrients like Quinoa, oats, buckwheat grouts, etc. Second, diabetes comes from the over-consumption of refined white flour, and a lot of sugar, and obesity, not from whole flour foods and unrefined plants foods. There are a number of documentaries that cite how when people go on an unrefined plant food diet, they lose the weight and can get off of their type two diabetes medications. Type 1 diabetes is a little trickier though, but people on the unrefined plant food diet can still substantially lower their meds. Fourth, weight loss is not the best indicator of how nutritous something is. This is not to say that eating meat and vegetables from every meal is not more healthy than an empty calorie, high carb made of refine carbohydrates diet, because it probably is. You got to be kidding me that you are comparing a high protein diet to eating on the mission. This does not mean it is the best diet. The human body is not designed for high meat consumption over decades, never was and never will be. Just because someone is skinny does not mean they are healthy.
There are numerous studies documenting the links of high cholesterol to heart disease. You can get all the nutrients you need from a vegetarian diet if whole proteins like soy beans and Quinoa are incorporated, as well as nutritional yeast. You cannot even get close to get all the nutrients you need from meat. Not to mention other problems, kidney stones, dehydration, osteoprosis, inflammation problems from arachadonic acid, rheumatory arthiritis, food allergeries, etc there are numerous problems when the body is not run from the right fuel. In nature carnivores have a digestive tract that is typically about 6 times its body length from head to waist, increased masseter (cheeks) muscles, spaced needle teeth, and herbivores digestive tract about 11 to 14 times its body length, reduced masseter muscle, jaw that moves side to side, and flat teeth. Guess which one humans overwhelmingly resemble. Function follows form.
Coffee, good for you? Caffeine has a serous negative effect on sperm count, not to mention mention other side effects of stimulants in general. Yes there is likely some benefits to a little alcohol consumption, but if a law is given one would have to see if the benefits outweigh the cost. The question in giving the green light to alcohol consumption to members of the church, would the cost be worth the benefits. You might argue let people drink and decide for themselves. Well, if you say its okay, then there are always those people with alcoholism in their family and do not know when to stop and they do not know when they are drunks, you will have to explain to them why they can’t drink and some people can. It just doesnt work that way. Considering that 90% of abuse involves alcohol and drugs, I think that the benefits do not outweigh the cost. The benefits would come anyway, because wine is from plants. It just better to consume the whole plant, grapes and get the antioxidants in their pure form, so again the plant best diet is still the what we were made for. You may want to watch the documentary forks over knives, and look at John McDougalls videos on you tube.
I wouldn’t say that Jesus was against everyone who made up rules, we was against the people who made up the wrong kind of rules for the wrong reasons. The rules for the those in power to get gain and for people to judge, persecute and hate others Jesus did away with. However, Jesus also invokes a different set of teachings or rules if you want to call them that of his own, he was just the happiness, feel good guru. Turn the other cheek, if someone compells thee to walk a mile go twain, whoever lust after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart. Those rules Jesus taught were aimed at a heart in the right place and required much more self discipline of personal desires. No to mention his call to leave all behind for the Kingdoms sake, as did the church under Peter as the head shortly after Jesus left, and for the disciples to take up their cross and follow him- signifyiing that death for the kingdom was a likely possibility. Those are pretty hard rules in their own way as far as dedication to the gospel. I think that the churches stance on rules is actually kind of vague in some ways, as far as the church handbook goes, the church just outlines the roles of different callings and what they should do and that’s it. There is a bit much to the administration of the church I feel that comes from a huge church of millions of members. Many of the rules of church though-chastity, scripture study, prayer, tithing, Word of Wisdom, missionary work, callings, do good to others, those are also found among all or some of the Christian denominations from Salvation Army (Good Works) and Jehovah’s Witness (Missionary Work) to the Seventh Day Adventist (Laws of health) and Southern Baptist ( Scriptures and prayer).I feel that the LDS church swings way too much conservative in practice, this is a lot more evident from the local leadership than doctrine taught by the apostles to me. I feel that this leads to church members judging who is worthy of their fast offerings and who is not, the rich being seen as the most worthy members, a lot of judging of those who are deemed not worthy, and a slant of affluent members in leadership callings at local levels in here in the US in general. I feel that this is distinctive from gospel found in the canon of scripture and this is where I really find my connection to God being strengthened, in the gospel of forgiveness, peace, understanding, patience, support, redemption, etc. I feel that reg members too easily just go with the program. Pushing aside all the extra stuff of church administration which I feel can be too cumbersome.I feel that the head of the prophet and twelve are trying to get back to these basics though and while still moving the work forward, but as they have said they have a hard and harder time influencing the church. I feel that a lot this regimentation comes from the lower levels of leadership.
The funny thing about emotion is that personal emotion changes a lot based on understanding, I have noticed. When I have read anti against the church that has set well with, I have not felt very good about the church or even being at church. On the other hand, when I have resolved some of those concerns to greater or lesser extent then I feel great about the church again. The feelings of prayer are I feel are disctinctive from these personal emotions and I would be really careful about leaving the church on personal understanding and emotion alone. I feel that it would be good for you to really study this issue out of what rules Christ and his church implemented and compare that to the rules implemented by the Lds church in its infancy to compare two young and relatively small churches. You may just pray about different aspects of the church and see what you feel is right in your prayers and what is not. Such as: Is Jesus Christ leading the LDS church? Did JS see God and Jesus? Is the BoM inspired scripture? Is the Prophet T.S. Monson, really a prophet? In prayer, you may feel that some of these are true, none or all, but I think feelings in contemplation are different than feelings in prayer a least for me. I think regardless of if someone is LDS or christian, truth that is felt is distinctive. We sometimes know when someone is lying to us, because you feel that uneasy feeling, maybe even sickening or uncomfortable sometimes, and truth also has a distinctive ring., how do you feel when you are participating in ordinances like partaking of the sacrament, scripture study, going to temple if you go, etc because that is where I really feel pureness of the gospel is in the those restored ordinances that does make the LDS church distinctive from others. Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Hippo, Just know that we care about you. Myself and several people I know have been in the place of mental torment about trying to reconcile how we feel about the gospel with what you uncover about it and when the two do not match up, I know it makes for a frustrating experience in the church. I just hope this will help you really sort it out.
ktmxer702, It sounds like you are definitely trying to figure things out and how you feel about the church and what you and are not comfortable with. Like what has been alluled to before, it sounds like you come to a big generalization that some of it is good and the rest is not. If you feel solidly like that is where you permanently stand I can respect that and others will have to come to grips with it. If you are indeed, still trying to figure what you believe as far as the gospel and what you don’t, again I feel that time really needs to be taken to find the middle way. I feel that maybe you taken in a lot of just one side. To use an analogy, If you were in a court case, even if there was reasonable supposition that someone was involved in a crime, it was still be critical for the judge and jury to look at what role the person played-what it self-defense, irresponsiblity, manslaughter or murder. This like the Church, I feel it is important to find out what mistakes were actually made, why and for what reason before you make a judgement on what God would have wanted for your life and what you have done with your life. There are a lot pieces here, you made find that you fill the scriptures are inspired while God revealed to Joseph his word and JS later fell, or JS just had some really weak moments or something other completely different take, the same for Brigham and other. But you will not know how you really feel until you look at these issues from angles on all sides and the time you have already put into the church it would be worth it. Personally, I just feel that there are more answers out there than what people realize. By doing this, you may feel more comfortable with your view of the church and activity in the church and this will be easier for you and your wife’s experience in the church, or on the other end you may still feel about the same and she will be the one that comes to grips with it. I do know from my experience and others I have known that mental torture over church doctrine is horrible, and finding closure on what one believes is peaceful. On the flip side, I have noticed from the websites of those who have made the decision to leave the church who are bitter and mad, that no accusation, slander or assumption is too big against the GAs, no mockery is too insensitive, and the church is too blame for almost every problem that these once members have every faced. Whereas, the members on this forum of whom I think are really great, still have hurt or bitter feelings, but they have also come to terms with what they feel is inspired about the gospel, or enlightened or which parts help them become a better person. You do not seem like you want the first path and what that would entail for you and your spouse, though your the only one who can decide what will help you, but the second I feel will be worth the time so that you can carve out your own niche in the gospel.
Hi ktmxr, I have myself in similar position where my whole mission I defended the ban on the priesthood to African Americans as God’s doctrine, and recently found out it was really just Brigham Young’s biasness. I know that God always the human influence into the decision that have been made by GAs, but it has been a shock of how much that has been. I just want to make a few suggestions though. Though church history is not black and white as you and I were lead to believe or even close, you think you can still have somewhat of a good intellectual testimony of the church as well as a spiritual testimony of the church. It would really be worth your time to read objective author’s books who have done their homework on the issues that bother you to get full context. I do not think that Fair or farms would hurt either but of course these mostly focus on what supports their case, though they make some strong arguments.
Objective author’s are even better. This is especially true for the polygamy issues because this is the one that most, including those who leave the church over doctrinal issues, bring up the most. As far race issues, though it does not justify it, I would look at other Christian churches and even Abraham Lincoln’s attitude of race and mix black and white relationship to get a full idea of the general mentally of the 1850’s and 60’s. I know that in the restored gospel as taught every Sunday, you would expect some Heavenly intervention to prevent the course of racial exclusion in the church, but for whatever reason it didn’t happen.
Lastly, look for the truthfulness of the gospel not in the history or the current or past policies, even there are policy that would just urk me to no end if I dwelt on them and the lack of response to changing them at the top, but look for the truthfulness in the ordinances that were restored because that is really why the authority is so important. Restored ordinances are evident of course in the sacrament, temple ordinances, prayer, scriptures, helping others find joy and satisfaction in their life, etc. Even when I have been the angriest with the demands of church or some of the inflexibilities of Church policy, I have never been able to deny the spirit I feel in participating in the ordinances. I hope my two cents are of some worth. I loved BYU-Idaho. The spirit is so strong up their.
