[seedtender]

I can relate very well to what you say. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts and opinions on the forum. Welcome.

What? wrote:

I want to be in the church, but not of the church. Thanks for the welcomes.. I appreciate it.

[seedtender]

My3GirlsDad:

I enjoyed reading of your experience. It mimics my own. I did not come to this sort of realization until years after I resigning my membership. This is the path I am now working through.

I see history as something that can be easily taken out of context. History is often written and the writer is able to make it say whatever they like, with whatever bent they desire. What we think to be “historically accurate” now may not be 10 years down the road. I personally find some LDS history/scripture to fit this model.

Your comments on faith are refreshing to read. I wish I would have come to the conclusion a long time ago. I am considering going back to the LDS Church because of this thinking. It is difficult for me to understand why my life has taken the turns it has based on my prayers, fasting, research, reading, scripture study, and the like. It has been an extremely frustrating segment of my life. I’m tired. Very tired. I need some peace. I have been unable to find the desired peace…feeling like the seed thrown along the wayside.

I keep thinking I will attend the Ward. I never go. Fear stops me. That sounds silly. What is there to make me afraid? I grew up in the church, served a mission, and held many callings. I think I fear being judged, still wondering if it is a mistake, wondering if the same things that prompted me to leave in the first place would make me do so again. I fear that this Bishop would be a particularly hard man making me have a long grueling road back. I know him to be a tough man to deal with. These are all silly but are in the back of my mind. LOL. All this coming from a person that does not fear much of anything else. It is hard to explain.

[seedtender]

When I think about Simon Magus, in Acts, I see Priesthood. Simon was baptized. He saw Peter and the other Apostles performing miracles. He wanted this power and was willing to pay for it. So, baptism and the Holy Ghost did not seem to be this power. Then, that left something more. Something that Simon did not have…the Priesthood. I do not believe Priesthood is the ONLY power from God, though. I have seen miracles performed by those without Priesthood and I have seen miracles performed from those having some kind of Priesthood…whether in LDS Church or not.

[seedtender]

I’m unfortunate in that I live in a Ward boundary with a great deal of wealth, no diversity, and a highly judgmental lot.

I have had the opportunity to be in some good Wards, though.

Valoel wrote:

Cool. Thanks for sharing your experience Rod. Every ward and congregation is so different. I really like my current ward too. People here are REALLY down to earth, and we are pretty diverse too (in many ways). Seriously. They inspire me all the time. Sure, I don’t agree with everything said by every person. That’s ok. You know what? Each person is beautiful, and they are in their own place and time with their religious view. Like you said, it isn’t up to me or anyone else to tear that down. God can choose that, and He/She/They indeed call us one at a time to be torn down in our life. It’s His call, not mine or anyone else.

People in my ward are friendly and accepting. Both Bishops since I have been here are loving, mature and wise leaders doing the best they can. They have been great examples.

[seedtender]

You may be in a good place then. Do more believing members look down on you in your Ward for this attitude or have you even worked your way past that if it does occur? Does it even come up? You just say, “I believe.” and that is all there is to it? There is more to Joseph Smith, and the church, than just him being a prophet. The title he has is a prophet, seer, and revelator. Those each have specific meanings from what I recall. You believe he is a prophet. What about the other two titles he, and others, have?

One problem I have seen is that many go hardcore with something said by the 12 or First Presidency. If they say it then the members interpret it themselves, or worse yet they let others interpret it for them, and that interpretation becomes the doctrine and standard by which everyone should live. It is like the three earring policy. Believe it or not, I saw this at work where a lady was chastised for not going by BYU standards. While BYU was never mentioned, that comment struck a raw nerve with this lady. The other lady interpreted it for herself that there should be a set number of earrings. She placed that standard on all church members.

I did read an Ensign that said Gordon Hinckley commented that the First Presidency did not have any minimal ear piercing position. I know he mentioned the two piercings before but I believe, in context, it was something to discourage body mutilations and tattoos. The above story was one extreme example of how members, and lower level leaders, go mad with the letter of the law and not the intent.

“It ain’t all sugar.” I love that.

Valoel wrote:

I currently fall under that category that Tom is talking about.

I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. He was a 19th century mystic that acted like a prophet, thus he qualifies as a “prophet.” I believe that Joseph believed his experiences. That makes him sincere in my mind (it doesn’t mean it was all factually true, just that JS believed). JS wrote scripture like a prophet and gathered people into a church community like past prophets. I can answer honestly that I think he was THE prophet of the LDS Restoration. Who else would that be?

Now I can say all that, and at the same time don’t have to accept every single word that came out of his mouth or pen as the literal word of God, and that applies exactly the same to me and all other people. I really like a lot of Joseph Smith’s teachings — the good positive ones. I like his breaking of the status quo. I like his rejection of thousand year old creeds. I like his ideas on universal salvation, personal revelation, divine nature of humans, lack of original sin, brother-sister kindred of all humankind, eternal progress … I could go on and on. God speaks to me through prophets, but I am responsible for what I decide to use or discard. It ain’t all sugar

I think he was a terrible banker, a terrible politician, and not a great businessman. I think he was a little goofey sometimes with the peep-stone treasure seeking, but that really was pretty common for his day. He seemed to grow out of that. I find his polygamy ideas troublesome at best. He was a flawed man. His willingness to follow his impulses made him a great religious genius, while at the same time making him prone to bad worldly mistakes.

[seedtender]

I may do this. I am still thinking about just going and letting it be that. The one thing I might not like is just feeling like a bump there. Not being able to take sacrament, not being able to fully participate unless I was re-baptized, etc. For LDS, it is not quite the same as someone else in another church, who is not a member of that church, just attending. In many churches, I can go and partake of the sacramental elements without being a member. Little things like that. There are other churches, such as Catholic, that follow a similar route, though.

Are there things I do not agree with? Yes. A few things. I do not necessarily believe in the relevance of temples today and being able to save one’s dead. Consequently, I do not believe in the tithing line and how it is used as an means of granting full participation in the church. Most other things are just more of being open to belief possibilities these days.

I have seen never-Mos at church like you describe. They have mostly been family members in a part member family. Is that the case with those you know?

I will keep you updated.

Valoel wrote:

Great suggestions.

I would point out that you absolutely can attend the LDS Church, attend classes, participate in social functions and all of that without being rebaptized. It would do no harm to just go back and start attending to see if that really is the direction you want to go. I like the idea of being upfront and talking to the Bishop. How could someone turn you away with an attitude like that?

You don’t have to believe it all to participate or enjoy. Join some of us at the buffet . Life doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing proposition, neither does the LDS Church. There are a lot of great teachings in the LDS Church. Are there things you don’t agree with? That’s ok. I hope it is ok. I don’t have total faith in it all either.

Tell them you are mulling over the possibility of coming back, that you miss elements of the Church, and you would like to try things out again. I know there are callings you can have as a non-member. We have some never-mo’s in our ward that you would not be able to identify unless you really had the background knowledge.

Feel free to keep us updated. I would be really interested to see how this works out for you. I am sure you would have great perspectives to share here.

[seedtender]

I am not quite sure that the LDS Church would agree that we are all prophets. Maybe prophets for our own family and that would be the extent of it. Is that a safe assumption?

I don’t think I’ve looked at it in such a way before. That is, on the basis of continuing to be a participant and thinking Joseph Smith was a “bad” prophet. For me, it was either he was a false prophet or the truth prophet. There did seem to be bad prophets in the Bible but I do not recall bad major prophets, such as Joseph Smith would have to have been.

Agreed. Likely a good idea to discuss the recommend questions separately.

Tom Haws wrote:

I respect and support your intent to disclose your beliefs and approach the church with integrity. That is what I have done as a continuing member.

I’d like to explore with you the idea of alternate interpretations of some of the questions. Regarding prophets, for example, can’t it honestly be said that we all are prophets or potential prophets? Maybe rather than thinking about whether Joseph was a “true” or “false” prophet, you can simply accept as a given that he was a prophet and reserve the right to believe on any matter whether or not he was a “good” or “bad” prophet. Maybe it would be good for us to discuss the various temple recommend questions in separate threads on one of the forums.

Tom Haws

[Author]

Posts