[SGoodman]

Spiritual experiences come in all shapes and sizes so I categorized them (a bit arbitrarily).

1. My wife seems to feel the Spirit almost daily. Not so often for me. I think I feel the spirit and I think it happens fairly often but it sure helps when my wife points it out to me.

2. The more obvious “wow, that was powerful” sort of experiences are easier for me to identify and I would say that they don’t come along even once a month for me.

3. The unequivocal, faith promoting, really cool experiences that I will remember for a lifetime don’t even happen as often as once a year (again, for me).

4 And at the top of the pyramid we have the life altering, touched by the hand of God, can’t even talk about them without choking up sort of experiences and I can count those on one hand.

As for when and how they happen, I’ve got nothing. I can’t find a common thread that runs through them all. There isn’t a part of life that the Spirit doesn’t touch in some way nor is there a single thing that I can find that guarantees me a spiritual ‘event’ of some sort. I don’t always feel the spirit while attending the Temple, for example. Sometimes a Temple session is just a relaxing and peaceful couple of hours and I go back to my daily routine, nothing more. On the other hand, I attended a Pentecostal Church in Louisiana and talked to the Pastor afterwards and we both felt the Spirit very strongly.

I wish I were better at this, to be of more help to you but mostly for me.

[SGoodman]

EuSouScott wrote:

But does anyone really argue that the institutional church (as run by the 1st Pres and the Q12) has been totally honest with the rank and file?

I do.

I don’t think they have ever knowingly told me something that wasn’t true, which is the definition I use for ‘totally honest’. Now, they haven’t shared Church financials with me since the mid 60s but they aren’t obligated to and it isn’t dishonest not to. They also haven’t spent any time explaining the Mountain Meadows Massacre or the apparent similarities between the Temple ceremonies and Masonic rituals to me but I don’t see those omissions as dishonesty. They aren’t hiding the information, they just don’t consider the teaching of those things to be their responsibility. It’s even a fact that they have taught me in the past certain things that aren’t true like black skin being the curse of Cain or that polygamy was to ensure that all those poor widows were taken care of but this isn’t dishonesty. It’s not dishonest to be in error. It’s just error.

So, yes, the institutional Church as run by the Prophet and the Quorum of the 12 has been totally honest with the rest of us.

[SGoodman]

Pinklemonade, I intend this post to be entirely constructive And nonjudgmental. I don’t want you o read any condemnation into what I wright.

You resorted to wearing them only in Temple (an entirely appropriate place to wear them) and in Church on Sunday. I was going to criticize the use on Sundays as vain and simply to be seen by others but you explained how many people in your circle decided to concern themselves with your spiritual choices and I realized that’s exactly why you did it and there’s no shame in trying to shut them up. Their penchant for butting in is an entirely different discussion.

You said that your reaction to the garments was discomfort, anxiety, “I would cry every day when I got dressed and would wake up at night sweating and in tears.” It’s just underwear. What about this could possibly create that level of tension in you?

Here’s my Temple Garment story (only my story isn’t about garments). When I was first baptized I wasn’t thrilled about tithing….so I didn’t pay it. My Bishop encouraged me to pay tithing so I did but I begrudged every dollar so I stopped. I didn’t want to pay tithing and when I did pay it I wasn’t getting anything out of it but anger and resentment so why would I do that to myself? Eventually I got called on a mission and that required Endowments which meant a Temple Recommend and tithing. So I made it a matter of prayer and my prayers were mostly based on “help me not see this in such a negative light. Just help me feel ok with it.” Along with prayer, I studied tithing historically, doctrinally, and financially. I thought about it all the time, and all the while I was paying it. I gained a strong and joyful testimony of tithing and only days later I got an enormous financial blessing that confirmed for me the testimony that I received.

Have you considered just tucking the garments in a drawer? Just stop wearing them, and when you feel like you’re ready to put in the necessary work, make it a matter of prayer, study, meditation and practice and get yourself a testimony of the principles involved. Any part of the Gospel that doesn’t bring me joy, or even conceivably might eventually lead to joy is a principle that I have obviously gotten wrong. If I can’t figure it out, I put it away till some future date when I might have a better handle on it (this explains the years that passed before we held regular family home evening. At the time it just wasn’t worth the shouting and tears).

[SGoodman]

Probably the main reason that we are still married is that I was completely open about my FC with her. I hadn’t planned to be. She felt something must be wrong and she asked persistently enough that I finally told her everything. She wasn’t interested in the minutia (her idea of what constituted minutia was what particular anti-Mormon attack, historical quote, or Book of Mormon anachronism had me preoccupied at the moment). She mostly just wanted to know how I felt and what I was searching for emotionally.

But, as Leap said, I’m married to my wife, not yours.

[SGoodman]

Here’s what we think we know:

We have no biblical or historical documentation of Him being married.

We have no declarative statement from any authoritative source that says He was married.

But in support of the idea we have:

Our understanding of the Celestial Kingdom leads us to conclude that He must be married.

And the weak support of the references to Him as Rabbi and Rabboni in the Book of John.

And to contradict the view we have:

How could the entire canon of scripture have missed it?!?

How could the Romans have missed out on using her against Jesus.

How would subsequent generations have dealt with Jesus’ direct descendants, especially when they misbehaved?

If no progeny, what was Mrs. Jesus’ continuing role and why don’t we hear of it? (We have plenty on Mary)

My own conclusion is that Jesus went through this mortal existence without marrying and, like so many here on earth, had to wait till the resurrection to enjoy those blessings. Yet one more sorrow he got to taste.

[SGoodman]

Everything seems to have a Jewish flavor today. 😆

I saw several posts that labeled the A Test as ‘arrogant’. I agree that it would be so if I were to use it on you. I just don’t think we can use the same descriptor for God. God actually did create the universe. God actually does know everything. God really is God and is beyond arrogance. As for ‘how dare He ask such an evil of Abraham?’, we asked the exact same thing of Him and he sacrificed His Son for us. Now, Abraham didn’t actually have to follow through but he probably got a glimpse of the anguish such a sacrifice would bring. And he got an allegorical insight into the life and mission of the Christ (and so did we, through him).

And my understanding of the concept of an Abrahamic Sacrifice is that it requires of us to be willing to sacrifice everything, be it material, emotional, or spiritual, to God. It’s designed to show us the limits of what we are willing to do, and then remove those limits. That’s a dangerous thing in any man’s hands, but not so dangerous in God’s hands. I trust Him, and so did Abraham and so did Isaac (he was about 30 years old and would have had to help his aged father accomplish the sacrifice).

[SGoodman]

I’ve heard from many, both born in the Church and converted to it as adults, that the Temple experience can be very jarring. But I find that’s just not the case for me or for the few Jewish converts that I know. We found the Temple experience very comfortable in that it presented a very Jewish atmosphere and include a great many Jewish details. We feel right at home there.

[SGoodman]

mom3 wrote:

SilentDawning – I am a life time member of the church which makes my experience a bit different. For me my first spiritual/testimony/experience was Christ centered.

The first family home evening lesson I taught, with the help of my mom, was the parable of The Good Samaritan. We read it together, my mom taught me about Christ and his style of teaching, I made cut outs for it and planned the lesson. This event was probably additionally nurtured at church, but I can’t remember an instance. However my anchor to Christ came moments after I was baptized. Standing in the little spot, dripping wet, waiting for my mom – a prayer, a pledge, a covenant, a wish – I don’t know what applies best – rose up out of me. I wanted to be like Him, with Him, I wanted to make it to Him. He was my fulfillment. Again I can’t say that I brought it on, but it arrived and was real.

Because of that I spent a long time, even as an active member having Christ as my God. I don’t even remember bristling when the first vision accounts had them separate. To me there could be 50 of them – Christ was still first.

Looking at my faith transition now, that is the core of my struggle, my Christ – the one I envisioned, read about, prayed to/through, etc. seems to not be the same for everyone in my religious community. Sometimes He is totally exempt. I get angry, defensive, heartbroken, sorrowful. I don’t fully understand the atonement, whether through scripture or church teaching, but I read His life, I read the words recorded about his public works and addresses and I am inspired. I am no where near him, but I believe if people spent more time “Trying To Be Like Jesus” – especially the scriptural Jesus, there would be so much more joy, help, hope, genuine love, caring.

Will I be a God – maybe, maybe not. But God is far away, I have few written words or images of him – can I try and desire to be Christs? Yes. So I am testing it out, trying on the teachings, studying the life, looking for ways to emulate and hoping I come up with a win for everyone.

I really love this post.

I see nothing wrong with your version of the Gospel. So you fixate on Jesus, not a terrible fixation to have. Christ did say “Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” As far also I’m concerned, your relationship with Jesus puts you way ahead of me regardless of how well I can articulate the distinction and relationship between the two.

And nobody fully understands the atonement.

[SGoodman]

A very wise young man. You should be proud of your part in making him so.

[SGoodman]

You spent much of your post on the various versions of the First Vision. I think that makes an excellent example for me to use. There are lots of things that are unequivocal, meaning that there is really just one way to see it. This (and many other ‘controversial’ things in the Church) isn’t in that category. There are many like you that see the differing accounts as problematic and there are those that see them as harmonizing and a very human way of relating past events. When I find an issue like this one that can be seen in different ways I try to imagine the worst and the best perspectives. If viewed this way, what does this lead me to? If viewed that way, whats my reaction? Then I adopt the point of view that takes me where I want to go. Another example is 2 Nephi 25:23. “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”. Those that want to poke at the Church for basing salvation on works choose to see that verse as a prescription declaring that we must first do all we can. Those that defend the Church choose to see it as a description declaring simply that we cannot do it on our own.

You get to choose how you interpret things and I make my choices with at least some nod toward where my choices will eventually lead me.

[SGoodman]

journeygirl wrote:

Orson wrote:

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Also doesn’t having the second anointing mean you can’t be ex’d? I’d have to check on the history angle on that one.

My impression is it assures your position in the kingdom as long as you don’t deny the Holy Ghost, but if you do turn from the church you have a good chance at the son of perdition status.

From what I understand, this is accurate. I don’t know if they can be exed but it seems like this ordinance guarantees you get to the celestial kingdom, so would that supersede a church disciplinary counsel? From that Tom Phillips interview, it seems they don’t even discuss the possibility of what happens when someone leaves after they have had it done. And by the way, the wife also receives this ordinance with her husband, but she doesn’t have the laying on of hands part from him.

You’re going to have a hard time with this one. There are exactly zero official sources to turn to about it so everything and anything you think you know about it is speculation or second hand (at best).

[SGoodman]

Service has got to be my favorite church topic. It’s the answer to most of my life’s problems. No matter what else isn’t working in my life, when I go find somebody who needs me and serve them, my problems diminish. When there’s someone in the Ward that I can’t seem to get along with, I find some way to serve them and my feelings for them change. When I have a hard time feeling the spirit, service helps me hear His voice.

All that said, I suck at home teaching. I have just never developed the habit of regular monthly visits. And I struggle to put enough effort into callings that I don’t care much for. I still haven’t done my geneology (“I’ll get to it someday”). I like to choose the ways in which I serve and I like to decide when and how much. When they asked in Elder’s Quorum for volunteers for a Saturday project that would take all day, I decided that I had one hour to give. I showed up, worked for 1 hour, and left, and never felt guilty about it. On the other hand, I have no problem taking vacation days to attend summer camp or girl’s camp for 5 days straight.

I think the Church pushes so hard on teaching the service aspects because they understand how beneficial service is to those who serve. It’s the same reason we teach anything in the Gospel; because we know how much it can bless those who accept it. I have a personal testimony of service so it’s easy for me to answer those calls. I lack a real substantive (visceral as opposed to intellectual) testimony of some other things like geneology or home teaching so I do poorly at those.

[SGoodman]

My testimony:

A bit about my experience with the Mormons. I’m Jewish. Met a Mormon for the first time in the military. Met several more and learned that Mormons raise up extraordinary kids. I spent time with those young men and women and learned that they had something that I didn’t even have the vocabulary to describe (the light of Christ) and I wanted it. I was baptized on the strength of knowing that it was obviously a Good thing though I was far from being able to say that I knew it was God’s Church on earth.

Shortly after the military I was called to serve a mission and I explained to my Bishop the limitations of my testimony. I just couldn’t go out and proclaim that the Church was the only true church without something more definite from God. They called me anyway and assured me that the knowledge would come. It did, in miraculous ways over the first several months of serving in France (about 15 years after Romney).

I consider myself particularly stiff necked. That is to say, tone deaf to the things of the spirit. I miss most of the subtle spiritual things that my wife takes great joy in. I usually hear only the loudest and clearest of promptings. I also have a terrible ear for music and no singing talent. After 30 years of my wife dragging me to Choir Practice every week I’m getting a little better. I’m also getting better at the spiritual stuff. You improve when you work at it.

[SGoodman]

The problem I see with this whole discussion, and with the counsel given by the Bishop, is that the same counsel was given to everyone generally. The right response to any given human interaction is a personal response. That is, the right thing for me to say to you depends on our relationship, which will necessarily be different from anyone else’s relationship with you. So every single comment made here will be correct for some, incorrect for others.

[SGoodman]

DarkJedi wrote:

Welcome to the forum, I look forward to interacting with you and to your perspective.

SGoodman wrote:

A man (or woman) feels the Spirit or he doesn’t.

I agree with this, and I see how this has some meaning to you. In the end we are spiritually converted – or not. Please understand that there are people here who do struggle with this idea, who believe or feel that they do not really have spiritual experiences, promptings, inspiration, confirmations, etc. Indeed, I think there are some who do not believe they have any spiritual interaction at all. There are also those who struggle with discerning what is spiritual and and what is personal feeling or emotion. For some it is a matter of intellect rather than the spirit – and that’s OK because “It is not that simple.”

I particularly like this post. I liked the reminder that “it’s not that simple.” Nothing ever is.

[Author]

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