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So glad this thread was bumped up this many years later. I don’t post often, but this was just too true and touching not to say, Thank You from the deepest part of my heart, Old Timer. Maybe we will get a Smashburger together again someday. In keeping with your non-excersise request, the hands down best 21st century solution is an “Isolation Tank” session.. Also known as a “Float Tank” . Most major cities have several establishments that operate similar to tanning salons (albeit a bit more expensive). Expect about 50$ per one hour float, but it is the best money you will ever spend on mental health (clearing your mind/unwinding). I think there is a slight technicality that needs to be discussed with “no children from polyandry” concerning Brian Hales. I have read and listened to many of his presentations/ interviews around the time of his book “Joseph Smith Polygomy” release. If i understand correctly it is his position that Josephine Lyon Fisher is Joseph’s daughter. He backs it up by the DNA that has been done by Hugo Perigo (believing member genetisist i believe) and although we don’t have the technology to identify female lines 100% but in his opinion it takes us “far enough” for satisfactory belief. Also Josephine’s mother’s (Sylvia Sessions Lyon) first hand account , as well as her namesake given “Joseph-ine” bring us to that conclusion. What is technically up for debate with Brian is whether it was technically “Polyandry” because her husband Windsor Lyon was excommunicated for a financial dispute with the church and moved out of the house (spent short time in Kansas City and lengthier time back in Nauvoo but is presumed by Brian Hales not to be sharing a bed with Sylvia and probally sleeping at his store .. He was a successful merchant) when Josephine was conceived. He was not legally divorced to Sylvia though, and he was helping with all house/ financial and children needs it appears. This was for a space of about a year or so if I remember correctly before Windsor and Sylvia got back together officially and lived a happy life together thereafter. It is important to note that Windsor knew Josephine was not his child if this theory is correct but still for re-baptized in the church approx 6 months after Joseph Smith death. My details may not be perfect but as an approximate very close. See Brain Hales interview at Benchmark Books avail on YouTube for more details. I too was at a real place of inspiration desperation a couple of months ago. I was looking in an area of the net that usually provided podcasts to reinforce my faith crisis. I found this 10-year anniversary discussion of the movie “New York Doll” http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/new-york-doll . It doesn’t matter if you’ve seen the movie or not, the discussion podcast (less than an hour) may provide some hope for what good is possible in the LDS faith among all the current hardship. A tiny little silver lining came to my dark days. I have a feeling any Stay LDS-er may benefit from a listen.American Crucifixion-Alex Beam. The most recent book, reads more like popular history than dry history and to my knowledge is the only text from the Mormon Spectrum list written by an author (Alex Beam) that truly seems to have no agenda. He is not Mormon or Anti-Mormon (Catholic I believe) and he knew very little about Mormons before his publisher approached him to write this book. Alex Beam had a distinguished career with the Boston Globe before the long process of writing the book and seems to have esteem from all his colleagues. His several interviews avail online before the release of the book show how defensive and respectful he is of Mormons, but he does not sanitize his book either. A book I could not put down.. Don’t expect this kind of easier read from Rough Stone Rolling. I am sick to my stomach upon hearing this on my local news today. An earlier poster says it makes sense from a “business perspective” (obviously not from a Christian perspective) how so? Please can anyone post any faithful explanation in which I can view this from? Ray or Heber or others? The first thing I thought of was “punishing children for the ‘sins’ of their fathers/mother’s is explicitly denounced in LDS doctrine. I need intellectual support on this procedural announcement, please, even if it’s the smallest of faithful kernsls to hold onto. I personally did not know much about this Elder. Looking at any conference addressed I could find this came up to possibly be the only one. For those that are interested I really enjoyed reading https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/is-it-still-wonderful-to-you?lang=eng SunBelt… I read some of that interchange I think.. Was that all the Hopewell Indian artifacts/ timeline facts in Florida (under a different Username I believe than OP here)? If so, it was quite interesting the back and forth on both sides. For me its at least interesting to hear new possibilities and the hard questions posed in opposition to those possibilities. I think this would be very helpful for my older brothers to read whom were raised by a very rough-style patriarchal father who showed more love for church obedience than love of a child. They now have very much conflated (much to no fault of their own) a rules based father figure in childhood with their with a perspectively rules based authoritarian religion. I was younger and found a softer-eged dad, not quite the same experience and my experience with the church is much more positive too. Bill, thank you for this, I think it will help many (not everyone) find the empathy they seek in this life. It was a thought provoking Podcast, I’ll have to experiment and read more into the different facets around the central idea presented. I particularly enjoyed new thought about Lehi with his experience in dream with false spirit… wether we can parellel that to the material world (many assume that’s how Joseph dealt with the heavens/ angels), I’m not sure. I think the assumption is within real rigid apologists circles on JS polygomy is that the angels/ Lord had been working on coaching or promoting with Joseph would have had to been tricked for many years on multiple occasions (regardless if any of those times he shook hands or had any physical contact we do not know. From lds.org Nauvoo Essay: Quote:Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.
. Anyway, generally I love essays and podcasts that make me think and expand me (mind and heart)and this one definately did that, thanks Bill
Thank you much for current suggestions.. I have settled to use portions of several of them along with a BYU talk by Leonard Arrington titled “The Looseness of Zion: Joseph Smith and the Lighter View” (1974). It is absolutely exactly what I was looking for and highly recommend it to members of this forum. It’s shocking how little we really get to know of the environment surrounding JS (and who he really was) from the pulpit in recent decades, this talk is the exception. Again highly recommended non-corrilated talk can be found here https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/arrington-leonard-j_looseness-zion-joseph-smith-lighter-view/ Hope others enjoy, let me know- thanks SOG
Brian, I loved your lengthy posts earlier in this thread… I especially love the idea of we are in “The ‘Information’ Fullness of Times”. Thank you for all you do to serve others hurting in the LDS community on this site. Ray wrote Quote:. and that he (Joseph) didn’t write Section 132
Ray/others, can you elaborate here more about what you surmise could of been the true orgins? Was this a fabrication by William Clayton from whole cloth? His story/testimony (forty plus years after Joseph and Hyrum death) many feel makes no sense as Emma loved Hyrum which was totally out of character of how she treated anyone pushing this “doctrine”. If Hyrum truely went to the house and introduced Sec 132 to Emma (which part of the reading would be dictating her own destruction if she didn’t accept)…. why would Hyrum also not have been in the dog house with her so to speak? Any and additional thoughts please.
A positive benefit for me has been the capacity to help guide others in the throws of faith crisis to compassionate and balanced podcasts and websites. My current EQ has at least 3 members (that I know of) that are just starting down that road that I have assisted, I have seen 2 others before them leave and i felt regret I could not at least give them the info like , mormonmatters.org (Dan Wortherspoon), athoughtfulfaith.org, mormondiscussionpodcast.org (Bill Reel) and introduce them to authors like T and F. Givens and discussion boards such ours at StayLDS.com. It has been a pleasure to offer these balanced perspectives to those who do not know where to go for trusting information (on the whole) anymore within the many extremes that can be found on the Web. As a participant who has been lurking since early 2010, by nature of my employment (lots and lots of down time) I’ve had considerable more time to read many more threads here than the average member I assume. Ray and administrative team, I know your not looking for kudos… but you deserve huge ones. The consistency here in moderating the site mission is unmatched anywhere else on the web. Also, I have had the pleasure of meeting Ray in person and I can tell you first hand he carries a level of compassion in his heart for all spectrums of belief, beyond what I could hope to develop in myself over a lifetime. My hope is none of us take this for granted (especially in light of how many sites have fallen far from intended mission) and can even assist in keeping discussions level-headed when we are having good days ourselves. I love this site family, and would be devistated if we lost our way. Quite frankly it is the only site I feel comfortable recommending to others precisely because of the even handedness in dialogue for struggling members as well as more traditional members who come here to attempt empathy for individuals in faith crisis. Keep up the great work!!
