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I’m glad you re-visited this topic one last time Shawn. You have an incredible way of relaying great information, bearing your emotion raw and offering an optimistic path within the struggle to make peace with this most confusing of all topics regarding our religious orgins. God bless you with comfort and a wonderful monogomous eternal marriage my friend. Yesterday (11/11) was devastating for me regarding this latest essay. My wife, a close family member and a friend of 20-years all independent of each other kindly let me know they are taking huge steps-back regarding participation in the church. Each, has seperately been dealing with doubt for some time, and polyandry not even being any of their long-term main issues going back- as far as I can tell. Too much coincidence however, so I must infer this latest essay and its broader reaction (ie CNN-yesterday) may have legitimize those who struggle to have some peace about their conclusions in taking a difinative longer “time-out” at the very least. A breaking point if you will. All stated something to the effect they have no intention of removing membership but will wait on the sidelines (the close family member will go to sacrament only) indefinitely until they receive greater light and knowlege on which way to proceed. All I can think is, perhaps God has given this essay to those who suffer on the fence with shame/guilt and questioning as a difinitive gift of respite for a time. Outside proof that your not crazy to your more orthodox family members.
Its one thing to get a culture in which the majority rarely see an African Americans face to get too agervated over priesthood ban issues etc. Its entirely another to a introduce the issues in this latest easy to a culture that is borderline obsessed with morality/ chasedness. Tough Stuff for all of us I must say.
The question I would ask you DB, is part of your apprehension here that these time consuming callings (one after another) have potential to effect the wonderful work your doing with the podcast? If so, I think it’s a very legitimate fear in that the individual “minisrty ” you seem to have been called to in this digital age gets stretched thin. Trying to balance ones individual divine calling in life with what the organization has in mind is very conflicting. I have found it to be so in my life too. I love your work on the internet and I’m so grateful for the podcast you did with Mormon Stories, it came at a very critical time in my life I’m not sure I know the answer as “apologist” has taken on a negative connotation for many struggling with honest faith. But I think the answer is related to something T. Givens said in JD’s interview when taking about what is a “Cult” (also a term that has become real pajorative over time). Givens referred to a moment during the David Coresh/Waco incident when reporter Martin Marty was asked what the true definition of Cult is? He said (paraphrasing) “That’s easy, a Cult is any religion that has beliefs I don’t like”. Thanks Shawn, these ideas are helpful for me to re-frame an issue that I struggle with. I have always valued your participation here over the years.- SoG Fwiw, I really enjoyed this discussion thread and feel it has certaintly enlightened my understanding and free agency to choose on a variety of angles to frame this complex topic in my own life. My own grandparents (served abroad as Temple Presidents) are known to have received “A Very Special Blessing” afterward..never referred to as 2A, but known to be this… which my extended family were privy to that knowledge, including us grandkids. I hope I’m not correct in this assertion, but I feel it’s been pressure on my own father to obtain likewise..who is driven to a fault ( ie. at times more concerned about his current temple job/assignments than anything else in real life- including very difficult trials for his children). He has doubled down on his own parents level of temple service now being in retirement himself. I know his personality very well.. in that he doesn’t seek this “Special Blessing” for anything more than honest reasons of “calming his constant anxiety”about whether he has been true and faithful in this life. He may suffer from some diagnostic features around religious scrupulousity..so it’s not fair to level this same situation in Mormonism beyond his own.
I’ll only say it makes me similarly both feel bad for him and happy that he has something to add drive for peace as he gets later in years. He had an extremely hard authoritarian and orthadox style upbringing.
Tangent Alert: my concern now… In a time which many believe to be at the least mild ” boundary keeping” with disciplinary action going on in the church. This being the case perhaps, juxtaposed with what I can gather from other comments here, threre is one website that allegedly stands above the rest in testimony shaking that is run by an individual that cannot be touched because of his own alleged Special Blessing? Am I correct in this assumption? This puts a pit in my stomach if so and I need advice on how to frame that specific issues if anyone has faithful advice on it for me. I don’t understand this at all and it’s a chink in my testimony as this is proof that it’s much more than symbolism right? It truly is the real deal concrete exaltation decided by men here on earth no matter what right? Help with any faithful answers on this one please.
journeygirl, My thoughts are with you. My wife (not raised in the church) likes it well enough, but thinks the temple is strange (took endowments to marry me, her only 2 attendance’s) and also does not feel she believes enough to seek a renewed temple recommend. She is worthy in my biased opinion other than her disbelief/disinterest/strange feelings. She is an amazing woman, but some along the way have interpreted that she’s not “faith-filled” enough. For myself, I have always felt it is not spiritually prudent to place myself on an uneven pedistool and seek a recommend until she is ready (which may be many years), and we do it together. Otherwise we would appear to be orthodox enough members. She attends all meetings with me. I have been judged several/handful of times for this decision not to seek a recommend without her over the years in similar ways that you detailed in your experience… and nothing feels worse spiritually. I identify with you on this one. Hang in there this does not define you or the wonderful man you are married to.
Quote:The world is made for people who aren’t cursed with self-awareness.”
I might change it to change “made for” to “run by” – but the general message is excellent for those who find themselves here, I think.
I really like this Ray. I’ve been thinking about it for a while. Two thoughts: Could this quote be interchangeable with
Quote:“The Church is made for people who aren’t cursed with (more evolved) self-awarwness?”
We know self awareness is the one distinction that makes us as humans different than any other of God’s creations. With this in mind, varing levels of detectable self- awareness do exist among mankind. We say it all the time “so and so person is ” very self-aware “. It almost implies (with all humility) a further evolution of said person.
Pointed question: Is this possible further evolution/progression of self awareness (again.. with all humility it is out of our control) that detectable differentness that makes the Stay LDSer type?
Extend this to anyone in this world in similar situation whom is demanded to see with much nuance that doesn’t seem to fit.. and they find the way to fit while helping to aid the progress others?
Any and all thoughts please…
Quote:I’m still an American even though I don’t agree with everything going on here but I’m not about to change my citizenship. The same goes for the church.
– Thanks ScotDean. Love this anology. Welcome!
This felt very sincere and captured my attention, thank you! Even if it’s not my experience exactly I can use this as a frame work for my own imaginary back and forth letter to/ from my organizational church “love”, that is at times strained (both ways).. but is always worth an honest internal dialouge such as this. Shoshin said Quote:I personally think you can trust whatever the church publishes, such as lesson manuals, etc. Is it the complete story? No, it’s impossible to tell the whole story about anything,
I want to clarify that this does not seem like a helpful discussion point for me (a fighting for faith believer) when 8 out of my 11 RM friends all who are mostly on a continuem of struggling much deeper than I am to all the way to disaffected. I would boil it mostly down to an absolute shock/ betrayal of the concerted misrepresentation of events that led to Joseph’s mayrterdom. IE “the dark powers of satin surrounded the restoration work and for no good reason other their evil hearts did this mob kill the earth’s restoration prophet”
When you learn just the mildest of basic facts are night and day different at the fateful time you dare to boot up your computer (ie Wikipedia) in 21st century you just don’t know what you can trust anymore because the absolute core tenant of these events that are always pointed at as proof of his prophetic mission are turned on its head. For us as a group, the churches own material that brought us (all born in mid 70’s) up through Sunday School, Seminary and Institute was the “anti” material I would assert. If “anti” is described as core taught material that would lead or set someone up to the absolute core rocking of ones faith at some point.
Thank you Mackay! Your contributions here will always be recognized as an important service to your fellow stayLDS man/woman. Speaking selfishly, It was never waisted time for us. We lived many of your ups and downs with you in that small UK branch, and I am always touched how honest the description of your process has been, particularly for those of us that have a spouse that is unbelieving. -Go with God, my friend Thank you for article post. I shared with my family via email who is in desperate need for new perspectives on SSA in mainstream LDS thinking as it’s becoming very clear that a wonderful cousin on very LDS orthadox fathers side of family is gay and there is a mild panic/denial going on currently. Changing hearts and minds can be a very slow process.. but is undoubtedly sped up with the good post shared on this site. Nothing terribly profound to say other than I have really enjoyed this entire discussion, some of the best posts…back-and-forth dialog I’ve read in many month’s. Based on original topic posting I did not expect this… that’s primarily why I try to read them all. Just like most things in this life, nuggets of truth and goodness come in the most unexpected places. I usually come to this site daily to gain empathy and give back when I can. Threads like this one fill my well with great peace for months to come…. until the next time both Ray and Cwald equally touch my soul.
