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Ray said Quote:objectively, he appears not to be close to some of the prophets in the Old Testament when it comes to “issues” – especially the “greatest ones”, like Abraham, Moses and Isaiah
. My question is: I have never heard Isaiah populate this list before and wonder if you could expand on what the Bible tells us about his human nature. I have frequently heard from Terryl Givens and other progressive LDS scholars discussion regarding Abraham (lied several times for personal gain and his lies almost brought destruction on a city) Noah (Drunkenness, nakedness, showing wrath to his son for pointing out his behavior). Moses (manslaughter and coverup). Jonah (Fled his calling as Prophet). Etc Etc. Could you expound about on Isaiah Ray? A quick search doesn’t bring up much. big thanks!
Hawkgirl wrote: Quote:5 – The Illinois newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor had to be destroyed because it printed lies about Joseph Smith. Yes, I was taught this, but it’s partly true even if it’s not the whole truth.
Hope not to derail discussion but most all I have read here and from other thoughtful historically balanced Mormons do accept that there were basically no lies being printed. Only facts that were going to openly expose the constant subversion of actual polygamy/polyandry to the greater body of membership and town. Now I have heard reasonable explanations that state Joseph had the right to destroy based on being governmental leader (as well as spiritual leader) for fear of rioting in Illinois law allowed this. Can you help enlighten me on paraphrased quote “destroyed because expositor were printing lies, mostly or all true”? Perhaps I’m misinformed or misreading. Thanks for your or anyone else’s help on this.
Really good post and follow up discussion. I only have to add that It always stuck with me from listening to Terryl Givens MS podcast he discussed briefly it was his thought there are many “spheres” of development. I would add that it might just be every sphere we are in has to each independenly be taught to be our one and only before judgment or we would perpetually procrastinate hard growth. TOH, Simply amazing introduction. Pod-casts (interviews with those who stay and have more evolved/advanced belief faith) are the next step that I always recommend at this stage. Particularly those at a thoughtfulfaith.com ~my two favorites are Jim McKonkie and Terryl Givens. I have listened to both many dozen times. They bring me a strange peace, even though it’s not a feeling of total belief or unbelief, but that they provide a road map for being comfortable in the exact pulling forces of faith on either side of our soul. The next step is to find peace in that state of questioning. I have come to believe that there are God-like qualities found in that state of being teachable and open minded to all that God has yet to reveal. (9th Article of Faith). Some describe it as a multiple year process. Jim McKonkie states about ”10 years” for himself of rebuilding. You are also to know… you are not alone! Thousands of us here meet virtually (web) waiting for more light and knowledge after feeling so betrayed as to why we could not be taught in a more truthful way if this is the Lords church. I still hold hope that it has administrative keys for ordinances~ but this may be all that we add to the human family. A gift of organization and “running the trains on time” my brother usually jokes. But as for having the corner on true factual faith, unconditional love, allowing/helping others Free Agency and many other crucial eternal laws. I feel greater LDS tribe fails miserably at these. We need other parts of Human Family to fill these into our organizational gifts. Good luck with your journey here. Much love to you. I have not felt such an honest heart during intro read in many hundreds I’ve read in a long time.
RichDunn, it also may be useful to note that BH operated from a view at that time that current Native Americans and the ancient inhabitants of BOM were all common ancestor. Similarly, BH operated from the the premise that actual geography of the BOM covered much more of the new world than the approx 300×100 mile radius surmised today (partly from closer study of the BOM itself) and to no fault of his own, these were the faulty grandiose assumptions made by some early church leaders and scholars…. Just thought a little background may help here. My experience was almost exactly like Roy’s. In fact I believe we baptized/confirmed our oldest children nearly same time of this year. I have not held a TR in some many years although I do pay a Tithe (old school… after net gain). For my bishop, the baptism part seems to be almost a done deal for a dad and that has priesthood and has shown even the smallest steps of hope /faith in the church . The confirmation I had built up some anxiety about because I knew the handbook said at one time “needs to be Temple Worthy” (but does not have to have the actual recommend… There is a distinction in this I did not understand at the time ). The Bishop talked with me at my request for a long while about my faith struggles and feelings of betrayal (I had put in thousands of hours in seminary, missionary study, college Institute and took until my brother had a faith crisis to find out about JS polygamy, why? I thought the most important gospel principle is free agency… This was well into my 30s). I even challenged him on the language of the handbook feeling my enourmous doubts precluded me from that TR worthy status. He listened… He did not give me TR questions and simply said I find you worthy. It was the greatest thing a leader has done for me in many years. The day was full of nerves but at the end of it all was a great bonding moment and something I am so glad I did. My advice: Put it in his hands with an open mind how low the threshold can be for some Bishops to allow. My apologies, I did not see JohnLocke already has opened up this subject line yesterday :shifty: . The responses and clarification there are very good. Administration can merge these as they see fit.Very interesting topic post Shawn, thank you! I stumbled on an excellent Q&A session with Philip Barlow ( a Mormon professer whom likely many participants here would enjoy his nuanced beliefs) where he discusses many of the problems the church faces going forward the next two generations so closely tied to a version of the the Bible that will eventually be seen as arcane and “Amish-like” for those religions still using it 40 years down the road. The entire presentation is 1hr 20min. All of it really good. If your time is limited start at 1 hour mark where he starts taking questions from the audience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhyO5L5XvU4&feature=youtube_gdata_player Your contribution here has been critical to many of the positive ways I continue to stay LDS. Thank you for your balanced, honest and positive approach. A family of six travelers in the intermountain west are better off each day I have members here like you to lurk and read such insightful posts such as this one. Often it is the only form of daily bread I can depend on in my current growth. Ray, My warmest sympathies to you and a gratitude of thanks to the man who created the environment wherein his son would someday moderate such an assorted community as ourselves with the highest patience, enlightenment and love.
Good point Ray, I have always thought that phraseology was silly… But more to the point: Is a vapor e-cigarette evil? Or is going to be interpreted by most that follow current cultural interpretation of word of wisdom (post last fall stimulant “caffeine” clarification) with the line be drawn at a vapor (with no other chemicals) delivery system of a stimulant by a different name, “nicotine”. Both bring alertness, both are physically addictive. I truly can see both sides of this and have known many that only nicotine, cigarette variety, held them back from full gospel participation) so I’m very curious that if everyone is smoking e-cigarette (which should be called just e-nicotone) in 15 years be much less an issue of full activity Also kids, Don’t Vape! This might be a divergence from the original post but in my neck of the woods parents are fighting a whole new worry “E-cigarettes” …. But don’t have black shriveled lung cancer or hole in trachea pics to back up this new concern. What are the thoughts on this new non-carcinogenic nicotine delivery system that is becoming all the rage with youth? Is it without a doubt against the word of wisdom? If you knew your child or loved one could start enjoying this alternative and have less likelihood of falling into the old classic cancer variety of cigarettes instead… are we wise to lump these in the same no-no level as the smoking burning cancer cigs on grounds of “avoiding the appearance of evil”? Any thoughts? Perhaps a grey area in the Wow that is coming to LDS kids near you. First it would be useful to have the exact quote by Joseph if anyone has it out there, i am not familiar with it but would love to source it. Thanks! I’m with Ray on this to a degree, with my own thoughts of recalling back to graduate school and practicing mental health for a short time before leaving for a different career path (nearly a decade ago) a Bipolar Axis disorder of any kind does not work for me because of the highly organized nature of the Book of Mormon and it’s subsequent following being among the most structured of world religions today. You would instead expect to see disjointed and scattered thoughts, impulsive and destructive leadership decisions… many undoing any advances the added energy and creativity manic periods granted him. And yes, quantitatively many more than the few legitimately very poor life decisions we discuss here periodically. Also, where are the depressive phases in JS life…. the crash after the manic phases that are known to be inevitable whenever the “brain engine” is running so fast for so long? No biological free lunches is something most medical and mental health professionals agree on. Bottom line, bipolar even when presented as high functioning is a major handicap for those that suffer from it chronically, not an advantage in the long term in any way, in my opinion. Brigham Young and his organizational skills cannot account for Josephs early leadership on two separate mass moves to different states, Zions Camp, School of the Prophets, Council of 50, organized international missionary effort Etc. Others in the past have hypothesized like Janes Now about a disorder diagnosis but usually with PTSD (traumatic leg surgery at early age, alcoholic father and mother that may of had mental health issues herself? ) could be more in line with a mental health explanation but the budding field of understanding PTG (post traumatic growth) may be the most plausible of any explanations, which does not eliminate the possibility Joseph was divinely led, perhaps it made him more in tune to receive mystic or prophetic experiences? The best resource I found in resolving many of the temple symbolism changes and masonic similarity questions is when I listened to one of the earliest Mormon Stories podcasts with Brother Kearney. A master free mason and a full believing Mormon. Essentially he describes that there is no question whatsoever that JS borrowed many of these symbols from free masonry as a vehicle or delivery system to teach eternal truth to a population that was largely illiterate. It could be interchanged with boyscout signs or any other delivery mode if JS felt he could of conveyed the truths the Lord wanted us to learn that way. It is the covenants themselves that are eternal…the contents inside the “vehicle” that are to be focused on, not the delivery method itself .. or the changes to that vehicle. For me, all Temple Change Concerns faded away nearly over night with that single Podcast. Many other resolution of faith questions on other issues have not come near as easy however.
