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I feel we must give credit here when a good post has been written, no matter the past history of the writer in question. When truth is spoken, we at stay LDS stand up and recognize it (or at least an honest attempt at as such). Otherwise, we risk being like much of the rest of bloggershere, narrow definitions of Mormonism with blinders of hate once someone has offended one of our own (God only knows what the old gaurd at MDDB put Cwald through, and I completely give you that right, I would feel the same with those wounds…I personally read some gross intollerance inflicted on our green Mars man before they kicked him off). A small point that is slight unrelated is Mr. Christensen’s “Pittsburgh” signoff. I served in Pittsburgh some dozen years ago and still have regular contacts there, and was quite familiar with virtually every Ward/Branch within 30 min of the city (Downtown, Greentree, Washington, Beaver Co. etc) …never heard of this man. A quick internet search shows Kevin is as expected a product of 70’s Utah upbringing (with some Cali education before a few stops back East)Like my older brothers from that era, it was the most intollerant of cultural millue. The only thing I take offense to is his attempt to attach himself to the roots of Pittsburgh membership, these are members given the choice, by large percentage, that would join Stay LDS before MDDB given the tough TBM decision on a good day. Case in point, Western PA is a place where they revere the likes of Thomas L. Kane who as a non-member nearly gave his life for Mormon in early history, an erected historical site there describes Kane a s the only non-member with a patriarchal blessing ever in the church if memory serves me correct.
Ray quote . Quote:“There is plenty in the book that allows me to believe it describes real people and events (even if I lean toward a location that is not accepted by many people)”
You have peaked my interest greatly, please expound on location idea or link if you would please? P.S. Thank you for all you do!
I feel for you church0333, I too have slipped up in the amounts I thought I could share in EQ lessons I’ve given, or even just comments when participating from the cheap seats. It gave me immediate thoughts that I should just shutup, or to a lesser degree should just unauthentically fall in line. But then after the sting of darting looks or the sense of backroom whispering subsidies, I come to the conclusion that the DNA and life experiences which have solidified my sense of the Gospel were divine (for me and by virtue my ward family too) and I am mandated to share (albeit as responsible as I can) every bit as much as the next member is in their own way. This makes a well rounded Ward family which is exactly what the Lord wants I believe.
Many get too dogmatic and feel bad from that end too, therefore having to make adjustments from the opposite of where your at. I’ll never forget a situation of an individual in a Ward setting railing against tattoos (years ago before they were near as popular as they are now in culture) and then through a series of events discovered my wife and another wonderful active mom in the ward both had them. His remarks were much closer to what the Brethren would say at any given moment than your remarks, but the feelings and steps afterward are the same.
I have found if you keep loving and serving these individuals despite their initial distain and then fade to wariness toward you, is really where your real calling is to allow them a chance of incorporating your vital differing views of a much broader Gospel.
Finally, I sometimes envision somewhere in the next sphere of existence individuals we knew coming up to those of us more liberal in our philosophical understandings of the Gospel pleading “why did you not have more courage and share more with me of what you knew in a way I could understand on earth? My progression could of been much improved!” In essence, we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t… but many here on this forum, much more skilled then I, have shown there is a nuanced middle way of going about it that drastically increases the likelihood that both requirements (tact and imparting new knowledge) are satisfied.
:clap: Uh….what Wayfarer said, sounds like all that that would be a pretty-good two hour movie to do.(p.s. thank you Wayfarer for providing me a study guide for the next 30 years, and for the humility lesson just as i thought i was starting to get a handle on most of the issues)
Mackay 11, Thank you so much for your intense participation here lately -your topic threads were/ are always thought provoking and it was easy too see the sincerity of your soul as you were working on particular issues here. I think i can speak for many and say we were served well and i personally know I grew in understanding as a direct result of what you dedicated of yourself so intensely here.
Can’t wait to read the temple parable you promised to Ann, the fear of ever returning to the temple has held some of my growth back over the last few months, despite starting to pay tithing again for the first time in 8 years this last December. I know many do go back with endowment difficulty and just focus on baptisms and cealings but that in particular (the endowment) is going to be difficult for me to avoid for long if i do decide to go back as my father now is the head supervisor/ matron of the endowment in my local temple by coincidence. Making the schedule/assignments and then overseeing the daily workings is the highlight of his week. Funny the paradoxes one runs into during this process.
God be with you Mackay!
This is a wonderful topic thread as i know this is a concern for many parents that are attempting to raise children in the church with more choice and authenticity of true free agency-instead of “here are all the expected milestones that one is to meet in this community, and if you don’t you will most likely be shamed by community and perhaps parents by a lesser degree”- What choice is there really (depending where you live) for those parents even marginally involved in LDS faith if they want their children to remain playing with most of the other kids in the neighborhood? Cultural suicide for their kids is not on most parents “to do list” for the year I would bet. Well anyway, these stories are very uplifting for those in this situation and how many have proceeded in light of concerns ….and ultimately had a good experience with it! I cant express how comforting these words are for others. So here is my question. Did any of those who posted here face the “Split Decision” of father baptizing/ however not confirming membership and Holy Spirit ? I understand that is where church authorities have really drawn the line for fathers if struggling with testimony and/or attaining temple recommend. If Bishop or Grandfather etc. stepped in for ordination blessing how did that go? Were there extra questions from son or daughter that were difficult, and as a result feelings of regret from father? Or does the main event of Baptism (pool of water and mirrors and white clothes) excitement just supersede the ordination to the extent that not much was made of it? Anyone who has had experience with the split decision (pos or neg) please post thoughts for others that might be facing this.
-Thank you in advance
Quote:some on the list (bolded) have been featured on the Mormonstories Podcasts. I think the church backs the truths to come out through people like them and many others. It will take baby steps.
Tacenda, Don’t forget to include in bold Grant Hardy for his participation on Mormonstories (episode 250-251)….even though his wife did most of the talking.
Wow Ray, your last post is why I come here again and again after searching the net for the comparable or alternatives, always coming back. For others that are new or just don’t recognize, the metaphor regarding being the instrument and playing in a “note/key” that best exemplifies your uniqueness is from the General Conference talk April 2008 “Concern for the One” Elder Joseph B. Whirthlin. He would pass away just eight months later, it is my belief it was his swan song address and not coincidentally just in time for the awakening of the age of the internet and the collide of Mormonism. These are definitely inspired words for our time. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/concern-for-the-one?lang=eng Congratulations Ray, this has got to be such an interesting time to be the father of a missionary in whatever continuum of the Mormon moment we are in. Perhaps Germany isn’t quite like the US in this respect but I sense at least a small international spark has been lit in this regard, I couldn’t be happier for you. Any thoughts… joys or initial concerns about destination? Germany we hear in the news is one of the more stable and prosperous European countries right now. Of course cultiral prosperity can be its own mixed bag when it comes to missionary work. Almostgone, I too had one of the most spiritually transformative moments of my life while experimenting with psilocybin mushrooms (said to be a slightly milder and less hallucinogenic experience to lsd but quite similar i understand). In contrast to your story, this was a singular event in my life that was initiated by a John Hopkins University study I read while in graduate school for a related field of study. See cnn report on study here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yKpvBQhTw&feature=youtube_gdata_player Also, in contrast to your experience, I had always been a fairly active member of the church and was only seeking to strengthen my testimony (seen as an odd yearning to some more orthodox believers I’m sure) of “The Divine” and and most of all, fill a nagging intellectual and spiritual preoccupation i had with the reported results of this study that i was unable to expel from my mind until I experienced it.
The strengthening I sought, came to me in a huge and spiritual way, and I was able to re-dedicate myself to more simple truths of the gospel including heart felt love and service to all as a result, especially to those estranged from or outside the church altogether. Also, I was no longer timid of looking at truth that would presumably hurt my faith including the many different angles of the church (including ugly parts of history) and consequently strengthening my faith after a long journey of understanding the frailties and fallibility of ALL MEN, prophets or not, and that vital truths can and will spring from the weak things of the earth. I believe God’s plan has always been to choose weakened men to deliver his message so that there would never be any conflation between the man (delivery mode ) and the message.
My experience has also helped me consider the church’s many varying purposes for being on earth, many that are often postulated and discussed on this site. For me understanding that beyond the basic principles of the gospel our experiences/ faith outlook .(see Elder Wirthlin, “Concern, for the One”) is meant to vary as widely as there are unique personalities on earth.
Gone were the “black and white” concrete thinking patterns (ie being in or out of which 3 kingdoms and the gravity of being apart of the only true and living church as well as emotional sorrow and suspicion we often feel for others living in the world without the gospel). This really was a major cognitive shift for me in life. I guess you could say perhaps i had an equally transformative moment like you but it was unique to me and my circumstances.
Almostgone, most importantly, I too have truthfully questioned from time to time the aforementioned experience and subsequent life shift that is quite different from what many of my peers currently see in the gospel. I wonder at occasional moments if this was a fools errand “itch” i had to scratch or the crafty hand of the adversary to lead me astray. But in the end the fruits of my life-shift have been wonderful, it has included many experiences and choices that have undoubtedly added positively to my faith and to the faith of others who are in my life. Long story short, I continue to see this as an authentic and divine experience for me and I hope you can come to the same conclusion for yourself over time… if it be so.
Brian, as mentioned by many others…. your compass needle post was so thought provoking, i feel fortunate to have stumble on this past thread today and spent much of my Sunday morning contemplating the meaning of your words in my life…you truly live up to your moniker “Valoel”— “Angel of Peace — Wakes us with a serene feeling of inner peace and assists us in resolving conflict within our hearts.” Just bumping this to the top wondering if you (Roy) or anyone else whos been in similar position- made any progress with this tentative part part of StayLDS journey….one you were heading into a few months back? What was your Bishops ultimate reaction to sitting down with him and was there any further resolution on this? P.S. I have the same baptism conundrum I will be facing myself soon. My wife became a little upset (not at me but the process) when I told her more than likely I could perform baptism but “voice” confirmation of HG and membership would most likely need to be done by Grandpa according to CHI of needing strict faith to one true church temple recommend standards.
Thank you for your posting this very timely well thought posting on the topic that I actually quietly read on my phone instead of participation in the last half of gospel principles class (ch 22-“gifts of the spirit”) after it descended into discussion of how we (confirmed members of the LDS church are the only ones God will grant these important life gifts too…. Ie. The rest of the 99.9 % born to this world be damned) and making fun of others who interpret gifts of tongues differently then TB LDS do. The only comment I made was after nearly a half dozen comments how these gifts are for you and to bless you I made mention these gifts ( as all blessings) I feel are less about you are more importantly about how they will assist others you rub shoulders with in this life. Thank you for providing the only spiritual moment I received at church this week. It would be great to first discuss here what some of the Ch. Headings might look like – ie. A dozen or so narrowed down summations of how many of us found our way into this journey and subsequent academia citation (perhaps partially from a behaviorist perspective on the complication when diversity of life paths/search intellectual clarity and LDS Gospel collide) as well stories of others in the church from today and church history who have faced the worked through these dichotomy with success. The term success would be up for debate of course. Two chapters headings I would offer: 1) overworked and overwhelmed: attempting to juggle callings and commitment with education, career, civic, hobby, family and daily living duties. -2) Teaching Truths: When a members paradigm of all that is truth and light is shattered by contradictory faith promoting experiences beyond the chapel walls.
Just bouncing a few ideas and themes from my own extended family’s experiences. Anyone else?
I was just thinking no wonder so many of us in this middle-way mindset feel a closer kinship to the Gay and Lesbian community within the church than the average party line TBM. For many of us know what it’s like to go to battle daily (literally or spiritually in our case) for a cause we feel in our spirit….nevertheless, we are socially not allowed to let our true light shine as when hoping to create true closer bonds with unconditional Love with those we serve with and around, but we must just shut up in person about the things we discuss in this forum even though the thoughts nearly leap from our soul. I hear in SD’s, CWalds and others previous posts that it’s best to somewhat adopt the practice with our leaders of “Don’t ask Don’t tell”.
