[Shawn]

Roy wrote:

I did know that Emma is described as placing the hands of a few (2, I believe) young women into the hand of JS during her brief period of struggling acceptance of polygamy.

This is an interesting story. Richard L. Bushman wrote:

Richard L. Bushman wrote:

While Joseph was alive, there were times when Emma countenanced plural marriage. In May 1843 she approved two wives, Eliza and Emily Partridge, daughters of Edward Partridge and helpers in the Smith household. The sisters were an awkward selection because Joseph had already married them two months earlier in March without Emma’s knowledge. When Joseph proposed, Emily and Eliza, nineteen and twenty-three, went through the usual turmoil. At first they turned Joseph down, but by the time he told Emily that “the Lord had commanded him to enter into plural marriage and had given me to him,” she was prepared. They married on March 4, 1843…. Eliza Partridge married him four days later. In May, they both went through the ceremony again with Emma present. (Rough Stone Rolling, ch. 27, “Emma and Joseph”)

And Emily wrote about what Emma did afterwards:

Emily Partridge wrote:

[After the ceremony] she wanted us immediately divorced, and she seemed to think that she only had to say the word, and it was done. But we thought different. We looked upon the covenants we had made as sacred. She afterwards gave Sarah and Maria Lawrence to him, and they lived in the house as his wives. I knew this; but my sister and I were cast off. (link)

It’s really sad. Poor Emma was trying to go along with Joseph and just couldn’t do it, and then Emily and Eliza got the boot.

[Shawn]

dande48 wrote:

When you’re in that special range, where there is not going to be an equal paring of men and women, where you run into polygamy, or polygammy-like situations.

With the limited population in early mormonism, I think this was clearly the case. Excess men were chased off. Excess women (including barely pubescent girls), were quickly taken.

I’m pretty sure Utah census data don’t support the idea that there was a shortage of men.

dande48 wrote:

I think that’s the premise behind “raising up seed unto the Lord”. If the end goal was to raise up a large population absolutely commited to mormonism, polygammy did the trick.

Jacob 2:25 indicates God had been raising up seed without polygamy since the time He led Lehi out of Jerusalem. Adam and Eve were sufficient alone when commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Noah and his sons were likewise commanded and they each had only one wife. I don’t know of a single instance in the scriptures (excluding D&C 132) of the Lord instituting polygamy to raise up seed. Also, I don’t believe polygamy necessarily increases the rate of childbirth. Brigham Young had 55 children by about 29 wives and it seems that many women could have had more children if each had her own husband.

dande48 wrote:

What I wonder is, would the Saints have been kicked from Missouri and Navoo if they hadn’t practiced polygammy?

It’s quite possible that the Saints would have stayed in Nauvoo if they hadn’t practiced polygamy. It was the cause of a lot of strife and led to the burning of the Nauvoo Expositor which led Joseph to Carthage.

[Shawn]

I consider what was said by early church leaders regarding monogamy and conclude that it doesn’t matter what their successors say about homosexuality. Here’s one example from Brigham Young:

Quote:

Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman Empire…. Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a hold sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers….

Why do we believe in and practise polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it. “And is that religion popular in heaven?” It is the only popular religion there, for this is the religion of Abraham, and, unless we do the works of Abraham, we are not Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise. (Deseret News, August 6, 1862, p. 1, column 4, utah.edu)

[Shawn]

The situation is confusing and I believe God was not the author of it.

The Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo essay states that “Several Latter-day Saints who had lived in Kirtland reported decades later that Joseph Smith had married Alger….” Did you see that? It was decades later when it was claimed they were married!

Hales admits that “it is obvious Emma did not believe the ceremony was valid and concluded the relationship was adulterous” and that Cowdery “sided with Emma, discounting the validity of the polygamous marriage and later referring to it as a ‘dirty, nasty, filthy scrape.'”

And here is a very damning detail: Hales wrote, “As a consequence of the discovery, Emma immediately ‘turned Fanny out of the house.'” I can’t figure out how it might have been okay for Joseph to marry Fanny and then allow her to be kicked out of the house.

Also, Joseph obviously didn’t follow the rule outlined in D&C 132:61.

[Shawn]

Hey, everyone. I appreciate the replies.

Roy wrote:

Just an additional thought. When going through a traumatic experience it is generally helpful to not make any life altering decisions. I. E. it might not be a good idea to pick up and move across the country while grieving. That being said, I hope that getting divorced and resigning from the church are not related.

They are related. It has been difficult. At least I’m seeing a good therapist.

[Shawn]

Hey, everyone! I miss you.

Guess what. I found a therapist and I’ve seen him three times. It took only a few days after I called to make an appointment to get in to see him. I thinks it’s doing some good.

He’s an active LDS guy, but he’s a bit unorthodox and the profile on his website says:

Quote:

He especially enjoys working with: …religious issues, faith transitions & crises…and issues related to multiculturalism/diversity (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.). And he is a straight LGBTQ ally.

It’s still a little weird because I want to say some very negative things about the church, Joseph Smith, and other things but I hold myself back. I think it’s going to work out, though.

[Shawn]

Ray, thanks for your post. You were not too harsh. Also, I would have responded sooner, but I’ve been really busy at work and I usually post when I have free time there.

I really do need therapy. I may as well start looking for a therapist now. Even if it takes several months, it’s better than doing nothing. And if I had started the process several months ago, I’d be getting meaningful treatment now.

[Shawn]

Always Thinking wrote:

Just want to clarify that you don’t want your family to have family prayer or let your daughter be baptized? Just checking to make sure that’s correct. I understand if she doesn’t want to be baptized, but if she does, why not let her? And why not let your family have prayer together?

Yeah, I should clarify. It’s true that I don’t want my daughter to be baptized and I don’t want my family to have family prayer. However, I haven’t said or done anything to get in their way. It’s not for me to allow or disallow those things. Well, maybe kids shouldn’t make such a commitment at age 8, but I’m not going to start a fight.

[Shawn]

Roy, I love you man. I really appreciate that you are trying to help me.

Quote:

What is the harm of believing that a 12 year old boy is given the power and responsibility to help and bless others?

IMO, the harm is perpetuating a lie started by Joseph Smith. It’s not right teaching young men that they have more power than their mothers.

Quote:

DW and I were married in the temple so why not use that teaching to help reinforce that our kids have a sense of belonging that will never depart from them?

IMO, temples are tools to keep people in line. They are used to threaten families with eternal separation. They are a massive waste of money. People have to pay tithing to get a recommend and are taught to pay tithing to a wealthy corporation even if they can’t afford food and water. That is abusive.

People spend time sitting in temples thinking they are doing service for dead people when they should be spending more time with the living.

Mormonism claims to put family first, but it maintains policies that split families apart for no good reason. My brother, who was my best man, didn’t see me get married. Neither did my father-in-law. I might not see some of my kids get married because I don’t believe in things that would, to me, be like believing in Santa Claus. This is infuriating.

Quote:

Our family is “forever” first and foremost because we say it is. Second because we serve each other in love.

Amen! IMO, temples detract from that sentiment. I suspect some people believe temple ordinances are more important than love.

Quote:

If “priesthood” and “eternal families” and even ‘God” are just make believe concepts then why not own them and use them to help ease the frightening and risk filled journey we call life?

If those things are not real, then humanity should learn to live without them and rely more on things that are real.

I’ll provide more reasons why I don’t want to even tacilty support the church. I’ll put it mildly because I remember the mission of this website. Maybe it will help for others to better understand my position.

My kids repeatedly hear about how bad the world is and that the boogeyman is out to get them along with his 35 billion evil minions. Children don’t need fear pushed on them like that.

They are taught to follow priesthood leaders no matter what, even though priesthood leaders have supported institutional racism, sexism, and homophobia. Immeasurable damage has been done to people.

Being taught that prophets can’t lead us astray when they obviously have in the past causes painful cognitive dissonance.

We are taught that sexual acts outside of marriage, even in loving and committed relationships, are sins next to murder – worse than kidnapping and torturing children. This is absurd.

We are taught to be humble to the point of grovelling in the dirt because we are never good enough and can never do enough.

Mormonism helps creates rigid, defensive, judgmental, self-critical, perfectionist, self-hating personalities.

I could write so much more. So, I don’t seek a middle way in Mormonism at all. I would like to be free from it.

[Shawn]

nibbler wrote:

Can you experience god vicariously though your wife? This is going to sound ultra-condescending but it’s not intended to be… similar to the way that children remind us of a much more innocent state of existence. To put it another way, grow to appreciate her connection with god and maybe leverage that to rediscover god for yourself? Just an idea.

I doubt that could work because she follows the LDS view of god. Interesting thought, though.

nibbler wrote:

Even if they make you wear white shirts and ties all the time?

Haha. Well, if they have mastered peace, joy, and immortality, then they certainly aren’t caught up in such silly requirements 😆 .

[Shawn]

Reuben wrote:

Online therapy is all I can get right now, in this country that’s so willfully ignorant of mental health issues. As far as I can tell, a lot of the staff for the online mental health clinics do it in addition to their daily general practice, because they see a clear need and want to help. Reduced overhead allows online clinics to charge patients about half of what they’d pay at a regular clinic. In my case, that’s very helpful because none of it is covered by either national or private insurance.

That sounds interesting. I’ll see if DMBA would cover it.

[Shawn]

mom3 wrote:

This may seem weird but what does make sense or peace in your life right now. (That is not said in judgement.) I am looking for what bricks and mortar you feel comfortable with. Even if it’s agnosticism or athiesm. It would help me consider ideas if I had a better sense what you felt you were present convictions. Even just character traits.

I don’t sense any judgment 🙂

I don’t declare that god is unknowable to everyone, but I don’t believe in any type of god at this time, so I guess I’m somewhat agnostic. I’m bummed about it because I would like for there to be a god. There is no concept of god that makes sense to me now, though. Maybe there’s a race of people on some faraway planet who have mastered peace, joy, and immortality. Something like what is referred to in the movie Contact. I would love to join them.

[Shawn]

Minyan Man wrote:

Shawn, you said:

Quote:

I am looking into getting therapy. Too bad it’s ridiculously hard to make it work.

Why do you say it’s hard to make it work?

Never be afraid to try something new. I have seen where it has worked for a number of people. It could work for you too.

(More cliches)

I’ve actually seen a few therapists over the last 20 years. I’ve also seen my family doctor, a nurse practitioner, and a psychiatrist. I have not had therapy for several years, though. I tried to find a therapist again a couple years ago. It took a month to get in to see a guy and then he told me it was a mistake that someone had referred me to him and he couldn’t see me due to insurance issues. So, I could get an appointment with someone, wait some weeks to see him or her, and then see if it’s a good fit. It could take months to start treatment. I know, I should be more positive and starting the search now is better than doing nothing.

[Shawn]

Roy, thanks for your posts!

Roy wrote:

Shawn wrote:

I was thinking last night about how my wife and kids will repeatedly hear references to a “worthy priesthood holder” and “eternal families” at church. I will be supplanted as the father figure in the family….

Shawn, this seems like extreme thinking to me.

The church does not get to tell you or your family that you are not a “worthy priesthood holder” or that your family is not an “eternal family” and especially not that my marriage “just can’t work”.

Well, I don’t consider myself to be either a worthy or unworthy priesthood holder because I don’t believe the priesthood is real, and I have said this to my wife. The church will continually lead my family to believe that our eternal togetherness is in jeopardy, and I can’t stop that. It’s held over our heads as a tool to get us to pray, pay, and obey. My wife has been horrified about our eternal status as a family, as I once was, while hundreds of millions of other Christians don’t seem to fret over it.

Roy wrote:

I matter to my family more than the church matters to my family. I tuck them in at night and apply first aid to their injuries. I help them with their homework and cheer for them at their events. The church is just a system – a cold construct. It cannot be a father. You are your children’s father.

My wife would choose the church over me for sure. My kids have a different perspective, though.

Roy wrote:

As far as churchy stuff goes, I preside in our home (assign prayer duty). I baptized my children even though I haven’t paid tithing in years and rarely attend church. I plan to confer the priesthood to my son when he comes of age to pass on the priesthood line of authority I inherited from my father.

I usually don’t lead in family prayer because I don’t want my family to do it at all right now. I still pray by myself, but not in the Mormon way. I usually start out with something like, “Oh God of the universe, if there is a God….” I ordained my son a few months ago, but I spoke from my heart and didn’t believe God was guiding me at all. The funny thing is that is was just like all the other blessings I’ve participated in. I do not plan on doing any more ordinances.

Roy wrote:

If the purpose of religion is to help us to get through this roller coaster of life, then what aspects of Mormonism would be helpful to you in this life – right here, right now?

I know that not all situations are alike, but I also do not think that it needs to be all in or all out. Peter priesthood RM or open apostate. I have found a measure of peace and sustainability in a middle way.

I only like the social aspect of church. I have great neighbors and I like being with them. However, I’m not going for a middle way. I would resign right this moment if it wouldn’t break my wife’s heart. I need to StayLDS at this time for her.

[Shawn]

Reuben wrote:

One of the first things I did when I told my wife about my FC was apologize. I knew she would feel the loss at some point. She finally cried about it for the first time last week.

I sincerely hope you can find a way to grieve together instead of separately.

I have apologized several times. I know it sucks for her.

mom3 wrote:

My advice – Even against your depression or dark hours – if you want a marriage and family life with her you need to give a ton of support and caring to her. More than you have ever done in your life.

If you can’t stomach church – Can you keep Christianity in your home and life?

Verbally and emotionally support her continued attendance. No matter how much it hurts you. You owe her this.

If she is at church functions take care of the house and family. Have meals ready, the place clean like she likes it, let her tell you about her experience (show no judgement).

I agree I should support her. I tried to stay a Christian, but it’s gone now. Everything religious is like Bill Cosby to me now. I just can’t watch the Cosby Show anymore.

Heber13 wrote:

Perhaps the dream is dead…but we get to make new dreams again. There is real beauty in that. Knowing that there is a new day, new dream, new experience…and a way to find peace through hope.

Amen. I like that.

Heber13 wrote:

I suggest you find all the resources you can to help you peel your onion back to the core, and look for ways to find hope again for the future. Love your wife as much as you can. Accept that you can only do what you can do. Love yourself equally as much. No matter what your path ahead, you need to find the hope that can guide you. Depression meds, counseling, shedding the past BS that is holding you back

I would like to do this. I really hate my meds. I quit taking them for 8 or 9 months recently and it didn’t go well. My brain is literally dependent on the artificial increase of serotonin.

nibbler wrote:

Not necessarily. You’d be amazed by how much kids like it when adults shoot straight with them. Kids will eventually lament that church is boring. When most adults are trying to convince them that it isn’t you can score points by saying, “Yeah, it is super boring.”

You’re right. I will still be their dad. I should have said that I will be supplanted as the priesthood leader in the home.

nibbler wrote:

Shawn wrote:

I told her I don’t want someone else to baptize our baby girl, but I’m not going to do it.

Hmmm… that’s a difficult position to place someone in. Is this another way of saying that you don’t want your daughter to be baptized?

That’s not what I was trying to say at the time, but I actually do not want her to be baptized. There is no good answer.

Minyan Man wrote:

I & members of my family have used professional help through the years & it has been a HUGE help.

It doesn’t necessarily go on forever. It is worth the effort.

A lot of what I say in situations like this sounds like a cliche. And they probably are. Cliches can work too.

Thanks, man. I am looking into getting therapy. Too bad it’s ridiculously hard to make it work.

[Author]

Posts