[Shawn]

Everyone, I am here to apologize. I AM SORRY. In my original post, I wrote:

Quote:

I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

I know I won’t win friends for this post. I hope all of you leave this forum. I wish the best for each of you.

I didn’t like the “How to Stay” article because of the “Tactfully Embrace the Title “Buffet Mormon”” section. I have really been thinking about this and I realized I have actually been living the “middle way” and it helped me to stayLDS! I really hope that the middle way can lead as many as possible to be a “TBM,” though. I think that does not necessarily mean taking everything literally.

I am sorry for judgmental and condescending things I have written. I especially apologize to wayfarer. On Tuesday I wrote “I will probably find more concerns in the future” and that is true. I don’t have any serious concerns now, but I anticipate needing this site someday. So, I do NOT “hope all of you leave this forum.”

Yes, I saw some responses in other threads that seem to feed the doubt and I wish that wouldn’t happen, but I can see that this site really helps a lot of people. I look forward to sticking around.

[Shawn]

Ciasiab wrote:

I have read every post in this thead and I have not found any to be bitter or wallowing. People have expressed to you what they believe and why they believe it. If you have found another way good for you, but please don’t call the beautiful responses I have seen in this post – responses that exposed their inner souls – wallowing in the mud. It is offensive.

The responses here have been fine and I appreciate that. I didn’t say there are any bitter responses in this thread. I have seen them in other threads. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.

[Shawn]

Ray, I’m 33 years old.

HSAB wrote:

Shawn, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us-I hope it is helpful to you and others reading this thread. You mentioned that you had been struggling for a long while with concerns about the church, but then received a witness that gave you peace. If you had not received that witness, you might still be struggling, correct? I just want to mention that because there are people on this site who may not have been granted that peace yet, and are still searching for it. Just like you studied and searched before you came to find that peace, they are going through their own spiritual journey right now.

For some of us, it doesn’t happen all at once. I personally have always been one to focus on one or two concerns at a time until I find peace with them, and receive some sort of testimony about them.

I hope I don’t offend you when I say this, but it seems like you may be expecting everyone to feel the same peace you feel because of your revelation. I wonder if Heavenly Father gave you those questions/concerns and this overwhelming peace so that you could understand when others are questioning – not expect others not to question.

Just a thought. I know that in my life the Lord gives me trials so that I can better understand, love and help those around me.

Yes, I said my last post would be the final one, but HSAB deserves a response.

HSAB, thanks for your response. I did receive a witness Sunday that brought me peace. You are correct that I would still be struggling without it. It really didn’t happen all at once, though – the last witness was one of a few, and many questions were answered in other ways. I read FairMormon, Jeff Lindsay, and posted some stuff on another forum.

I do not expect everyone to have an experience like mine, but I hope some do. In my first post, I wrote:

Quote:

I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow. All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

I already retracted the part about this site hurting me because it hasn’t. I maintain that there are people here wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt, posting bitter responses in threads. I understand there are also many here trying to progress. There are answers and explanations for concerns I’ve had, but sometimes the answer is to stop asking certain questions.

[Shawn]

Last post. I didn’t hoodwink anyone.

There is blind obedience, and there is constantly rummaging through garbage obsessively picking apart every piece of trash. Maybe it’s best to be somewhere in between. Some responses in this thread show what I first pointed out and I hope you can let it go. Others may be getting good answers and moving on. I wish all of you the best.

[Shawn]

wayfarer wrote:

Hmmm. A very good friend of mine, a former bishop, very TBM, and I were talking recently. I have a tradition of asking him if the church is still ‘true’. It’s meant as humor, and he takes it as such. His response used to be ‘of course it is!”, but now it’s “What does that word ‘true’ mean?” He has a point. If ‘true’ means perfect, 100% free of falsehood, subterfuge, defect, or deception, then I would have to say, based upon objective criteria, “The church is not true”. Even if we say that ‘the church is true’ and mean that it is an exact reflection of the church as established by Jesus Christ in around 33 CE, then I would also have to say, based upon very objective criteria, not it is not ‘true’ to that either, although in some way it is a better reflection of the original jewish christian “Followers of the Way” as they were called. This I can demonstrate from extensive research into the primitive church.

Then when you say, “The church is the only true and living church on the earth,” I wonder what you mean.

No offense, but this reminds me of Titus 3:9 – “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” I don’t want to contend and strive about definitions like this.

wayfarer wrote:

As we talked about Mother Teresa, they conveyed a personal side that was known to very few — a woman of exceptional spirituality and humility, who gave of everything she had to sanctify the poor of India. When I walked into the LDS churches in India, I found a pseudo-utah culture…Likewise, I have worked closely with people of every culture. I find no uniqueness among LDS that sets us apart morally or ethically from anyone else in the world. My hindu colleagues have extraordinarily chaste families, teach exceptional values, and have eternal love that I cannot deny in the least.

Yes, spiritually and truth can be found all over the world in different faiths and cultures. I don’t see how that can mean that God hasn’t established His church on earth.

wayfarer wrote:

As for the Church being the ‘only one set up by Christ’, that is a debatable claim. First, it is not entirely clear that Christ set up a church.

Christ ordained the twelve apostles and gave them authority and power (Luke 9:1–2 and Mark 3:14). He gave the sealing keys (Matthew 16:19). The saints were part of the “household of God” and were “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:19-20). “the Lord appointed other seventy also” (Luke 10:1).

wayfarer wrote:

There is the question of your clause ‘and administer saving ordinances’. This is a claim, but a self-referential claim. If the church says that certain ordinances are necessary for salvation, then to be saved according to definition, you must have them, then the church is the only one authorized to do those specific ordinances. Aside from baptism, the definition of LDS saving ordinances are not to be found in the bible, nor are they….

Questions, contentions, and strivings. No offense.

[Shawn]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

I really wish that others here could have a similar experience

I’m going to say this as gently as possible, with a grin of love on my face as I type, but I dare say I and lots of others here HAVE had “a similar experience” (and, just perhaps, an even stronger experience or two or twenty) – and that is precisely why some people here still “stayLDS” depsite certain concerns and ohter expereinces. (even truly horrible experiences with members of the Church, in some cases.

Please consider that possibility and try to avoid brushing with a huge, indescriminate brush.

The experience I was referring to “made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.” If people still have serious concerns, maybe they didn’t have a similar experience, or they have had such an experience but need another.

[Shawn]

Heber13 wrote:

At the same time, your judgments (I understand you may not intend to offend, but judgments they were), are difficult to articulate, which is the very point of holding the discussions online…things that may seem clear in our minds, are not as clear to express in words. I wonder if that has perhaps had the impact on you that you feel everyone on this site is “Jack Mormon” and looking beyond the mark, missing the important truths in the simple gospel truths.

Yes, I did write “I have had many questions and came here for help STAYING in the Church. What I found was people wallowing in the mud and feeding the doubt. This site has hurt me, not helped me. This site encourages each other to be a jack Mormon, choosing which principles, doctrines, and practices to follow.” I did not say that “everyone on this site is ‘Jack Mormon’ and looking beyond the mark.” I think the “How to Stay” essay really does encourage jack mormonism, but I didn’t call any person a jack mormon 🙂

Heber13 wrote:

Quote:

Shawn wrote:The witness I received really made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.

…This is truth, this is beauty and sacred. Your personal revelation that helps you is a good thing to hear, and we need to have people share what they find and their personal experiences. It can help inspire others. But it can’t be forced upon others as the only way.

You are right. It can’t be forced. I really wish that others here could have a similar experience, though. Maybe some could benefit by letting go of some issues.

[Shawn]

Heber13 wrote:

I’m interested in hearing more from Shawn on how this works:

Shawn wrote:

All we have to do is focus on the “fundamental gospel truths, which provide a basis for faith.”

and how that reconciles with D&C 9:7-9.

Well, I guess I would consider the context (translating ancient records) and consider what topics would be appropriate to study out in my mind and take to the Lord. I think I don’t need to do this with the timing of the Second Coming, evolution, Brigham Young quotes, polygamy, etc. How to increase faith in Christ, repent, follow the Spirit, and serve others would be good things to consider.

wayfarer wrote:

To say the Church is the only true and living church is looking well beyond the mark and worshipping the creation rather than the creator. This is idolatry.

The Church is not the Way. Jesus said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Those that place the Church at the center and insist that it only can save are looking beyond the mark.

Scriptures are not the Truth. To Pharisees that insisted that the Scriptures were the only source of Truth and Life, and studied them endlessly, Jesus said, “Ye search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but they do not, because scriptures testify of me, and ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.'” Those that insist on endless searching of scripture are looking beyond the mark.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church set up by Christ to administer saving ordinances. Those ordinances will be available to everyone eventually. Simply saying that’s it’s the true church in no way constitutes “worshipping the creation rather than the creator.” I am with you on Jesus being the way, but He is one who set up the Church to help us on the path. If someone really does focus on Church structure and policies more than the Savior, then they are missing the point, I guess. If saying “The Church is not the Way” is used as an excuse to skip church, I call rubbish 🙂 The scriptures are true, but not the only truth. If regular study of the scriptures equals “endless searching,” then it is a very good thing.

[Shawn]

I am trying to reply to a lot of posts. I appreciate your patience.

afterall wrote:

Jumping in here a little late, but am going to go ahead and post my thoughts as I read Shawn’s first post. Shawn, you are obviously struggling in some ways or you wouldn’t have come to explore this site and read enough to draw conclusions. If doing those things you listed worked, you would have already worked this out and not needed this site.

I was really struggling. I was perusing the ex-mormon site and that “further light and knowledge” site and other things. I was pretty darn sure I had become an agnostic a couple years ago. But I kept going to church and kept the commandments as well as I could. I felt the Spirit on occasion, which kept me going. Then I had the experience Sunday.

I really believe the answer is to focus on the basic principles. Things fit into place nicely when the Spirit is with me. I actually can see how Brother Brigham could say erroneous and racist things and still be the prophet. Issues that can’t be answered just go to the back-burner. I say it’s good to get answers when available (Fairmormon) and put the rest on the back burner. Obviously, I didn’t receive a revelation for all of you, but it seems like answer that can help many.

Cadence wrote:

I have to follow the path that is most likely correct after weighing the evidence and really thinking hard about it. Personally If I were just to focus on some core teaching and ignore all the evidence swirling around me to the contrary, I do not believe that would be an honest way to approach things. Sure I can ignore troublesome stuff and think about Jesus all the time but that does not get me any closer to what reality is. It may make me feel good and if that is the objective then I say by all means go for it. For me living an authentic existence regardless of what I want to believe is more important than feeling good.

That’s exactly how I’ve felt much of the time. It reminds me of this:

Quote:

Some in their spiritual immaturity attempt to appear sophisticated and intellectual. Instead of accepting revelation, they want to dissect it and add dimensions and variations of meaning that distort its beautiful truths. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has pointed out, “The Jewish people … rejected the gospel, in part because it lacked adequate intellectual embroidery.” We look beyond the mark when we refuse to accept simple gospel truths for what they are. http://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/03/looking-beyond-the-mark?lang=eng

Mind you, I didn’t ignore the evidence. I was searching for answers and explanations. Where answers are not available, why not “ignore troublesome stuff” for a while and focus on the Plan of Salvation?

A few weeks ago, I actually let loose a bit with my wife. Quite passionately I said “With all the stuff Brigham Young said, there is no way he could have been a prophet. And the Church changes according to the trends of the world – it is just 20 or so years behind. Why can’t the Gospel be simpler? Why does all that crap get in the way?” I voiced some other concerns (I can’t’ really remember it all), and my wife was upset and crying. The stuff was actually not new to her – she is well informed and is sort of an apologist. Anyway, she strongly said, “Yes, Brigham Young spoke his own mind sometimes and some of it was wrong, but he was a good man! Every prophet in history must have done the same. I feel bad that he is not here to defend himself. Rules and policies change, but the Plan of Salvation does not change! The Gospel is simple and beautiful.” She totally owned me.

[Shawn]

Roy, thank you for your clarification about LDS people looking beyond the mark.

cwald wrote:

I don’t get your last post Shawn…what was your motivation for starting this thread in the first place? What message do you want us to take away from this?

I was blessed to have a Spiritual witness during church on Sunday. It came while sharing an experience from my mission (which was 12 years ago). I had been asking all the questions about accounts of the First Vision, polygamy, restricting who holds the priesthood, and many others. I had been ruminating over them. The witness I received really made my concerns go away. I felt at peace with everything.

That night, my family happened to read Jacob 4, wherein Jacob says:

Quote:

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

I think many on this board may be doing this. I was definitely doing it and I will probably find more concerns in the future. I understand this may come across as judgmental and that it does not apply to all here. I do not mean to be judgmental. I posted to point out this issue of looking beyond the mark hoping that others would be benefited. I probably didn’t word it well and it’s probably not helpful.

My second post was to clarify that I really had been wallowing in the mud (the “anti” material) and to just respond to others.

[Shawn]

I really appreciate the respect.

I hope no one thinks I only focused on the fundamental gospel truths. I know that it doesn’t simply work that way for everyone. I have asked the questions. I have read many “ex-mormon” stories and “apostimonies.” After much research, I thought about leaving the church. I always remained “active” to help my wife with the kids. I was eventually blessed with the Spirit and my concerns melted away.

Quote:

Roy: But your post could have been written about the LDS general population as well. Aren’t we so invested with the “one true church” position, the historicity of the BOM, and the succession process for the new prophet that we miss the mark of the Savior’s teachings and example towards us.

I disagree. I don’t believe the membership in general obsesses over those things to the point that the Savior’s teachings are overlooked.

Quote:

Roy: I also agree that sometimes people who visit here can be exposed to different questions and perspectives that they never would have considered on their own this may serve to hasten the collapse of the shelf.

This site actually didn’t expose me to anything I hadn’t heard before. In fact, now that I’ve thought about it more, I can’t really say that this site hurt me. I would like to retract that part of my original post.

Mike, I am glad this site has helped you. I really think that there are better forums, though. I would study fairmormon.com also.

[Shawn]

Thanks, Heber13. I also found this from the Handbook:

Quote:

…They also consider the member’s personal or family circumstances. Each calling should benefit the people who are served, the member, and the member’s family.

Although service in Church callings requires sacrifice, it should not compromise a member’s ability to fulfill family and employment responsibilities (see 17.2.1).

http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/callings-in-the-church?lang=eng

I am saddened by the stories of fathers who are not around when their kids need him because he’s a bishop. If I’m ever a bishop and a member calls me for help, I’ll be like “talk to me later, I’m at my boy’s game.”

Elder Perry lists four priorities in this order:

1. Your Eternal Companion

2. Your Children

3. Providing for Your Family

4. Church Service

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6560-1-3363-4,00.html

[Shawn]

I have heard GAs talk about not letting calling and other things get in the way. I would like to read such articles but don’t know how to find them. Anyone know of a good one?

[Shawn]

I do feel welcome. Thanks, everyone. 🙂

[Shawn]

Quote:

If the info in that link helps you, wonderful – and I mean that. Just realize it won’t have the same effect for everyone else.

Yes, I suppose it won’t have the same effect on everyone. I hope it helps someone, though. It’s a tough issue.

[Author]

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