[Sheldon]

Harmony,

you will need to rely more on the “Gosple” and less on the “Church” to get you through this. See the talk below, and use it as nessasary

Quote:

Ronald E. Poelman, First Quorum of the 70

Sunday Morning, October 7, 1984 Conference

My remarks this morning are directed primarily to those of you who

have accepted the Gospel and are members of the Church and to those of

you who may be seriously contemplating such acceptance and

membership.

Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true

and divine. However, there is a distinction between them which is

significant, and it is very important that this distinction be

understood. Of equal importance is understanding the essential

relationship between the Gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish

between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead

to confusion and misplaced priorities, with unrealistic and therefore

failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and

blessings, and in extreme instances, even disaffection.

As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing

characteristics of the gospel and the Church, noting at the same time

their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be

developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the

Church in our individual lives.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed

of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally

applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or

circumstance. The principles and laws of the gospel never change.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution

administered by the priesthood of God. The Church has authority to

teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the Gospel and to

administer its essential ordinances.

The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual

salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that

provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each

individual’s life.

Procedures, programs, and policies are developed within the Church to

help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity

and circumstances. These policies, programs, and procedures do change

from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.

Underlying every aspect of church administration and activity are the

revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. As

individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance,

and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on

Church programs. Our lives become Gospel-centered.

Sometimes, traditions, customs, social practices and even personal

preferences of individual church members may, through repeated or

common usage, be misconstrued as church procedures or policies.

Occasionally, such traditions, customs, and practices may be even

regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such

circumstances, those who do not conform to these cultural standards

may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox, or even, unworthy. In fact,

the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired church do

accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural

diversity. The conformity we require should be according to God’s

standards. The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in

fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the

divine uniqueness of the individual. It is important therefore to know

the difference between eternal gospel principles, which are unchanging,

universally applicable, and cultural norms, which may vary with time

and circumstance.

The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures, and may

appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and even untidy format.

The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual,

systematically organized, by subject, perhaps using examples and

illustrations. However, the eternal principles and divine laws of God

are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of

circumstances and conditions. Reading the scriptures, we learn the

gospel as it is taught by various messengers, at different times and

places. We see the consequences as it is accepted or rejected, as its

principles are applied or not, by varying degrees and by many different

people.

In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms,

procedures, regulations and ceremonies are utilized–all divinely

designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures

change; the principles do not.

Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to

distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources. As

we liken the scriptures unto ourselves, we can better utilize the

institutional resources of the modern, restored Church to learn, live,

and to share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

A favorite scriptural source for me is the Old Testament book of

Leviticus. It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains

many rules, regulations, rituals, and ceremonies which may seem

strange and inapplicable to us. It also contains eternal principles of

the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.

It is interesting and enlightening to read the nineteenth chapter of

Leviticus, noting the principles and the practices and rules.

In the first two verses we read, “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto the congregation of the children of Israel.” (Lev. 19:1-2.)

Here is the principle of revelation. God speaks to his children through

prophets. He does so today.

Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, “Say unto them, Ye shall be holy:

for I the Lord your God am holy.” (Lev. 19:2.) Many years later, Jesus, in

these words in the Sermon on the Mount, said it, “Be ye therefore

perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.) Here is

an eternal principle.

There follow other eternal principles, some from the Ten

Commandments. Also included are rules and programs intended to

implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their

particular circumstances.

For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is

taught. A program is presented, namely, providing food for the poor by

leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the

fields. (See Lev. 19:9-10.) Current programs to care for the poor are

much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle

underlies both programs, ancient and modern: those being assisted are

given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of

their capacity.

In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught, accompanied by a rule

requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each

day. Generally, today that rule is not necessary. The eternal principle

of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.

Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming. It is clearly not

applicable to us. However, we also have standards of dress and

grooming. Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us

implement and share gospel principles.

The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of

Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment,

“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,” with the added divine

imprimatur, “I am the Lord.”

Every Church member has not only the opportunity, right, and privilege

to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church

practices, but the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by

exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal

probation. Without such assurance, one may feel confused and perhaps

even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional

requirements of the Church.

Indeed it is not enough to obey the commandments and counsel of

Church leaders; in response to study, prayer, and by the influence of the

Holy Spirit, we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness

that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired. Then we

can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church

through which to give allegiance, time, talent, and other resources

without reluctance or resentment.

Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate

institutional goals, programs, and policies to gospel principles and to

personal eternal goals. When we understand the difference between the

gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily

lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right

reasons. Institutional discipline is replaced by self-discipline;

supervision is replaced by righteous initiative and a sense of divine

accountability.

The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not

to invent our own values and principles but to discover and adopt the

eternal truths of the gospel. Gospel living is a process of continuous

individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and

qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of

God.

My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training, and experience, most

of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and

the application of reason. I continue to do so. However, that which I

know most surely and which has most significantly and positively

affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by

the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.

By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, that Jesus of

Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and that he is

the Saviour and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us. Through his

atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift

to all who will accept by faith, repentance, and sacred covenants.

May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the

gospel, as they are revealed in the scriptures, utilizing fully and

appropriately the resources of the divine, restored Church. In the

words of the Book of Mormon Nephite leader Pahoran to his friend

Captain Moroni, “May we rejoice in the great privilege of our church,

and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God.” (Alma 61:14.) In the

name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Sheldon]

The puzzle metaphor has a problem. What if you draw the wrong picture into the blank (missing) pieces? Say you get an ancient papyrus puzzle, and part of the papyrus is missing. You look at the box (revelation), and think you see what the missing part of the papyrus is, so you draw in the missing piece, and live your life (and write a book) based partly on that drawn in piece.

But then years later, somebody finds an original box top to your papyrus puzzle, and the missing pieces you drew in where nothing like what the original papyrus shows. You have based some very important aspects of your life on that fact that you could come up with the missing pieces, and now you find out it is all wrong. Big problem for you, and everybody that believed in your puzzle interpretations!

[Sheldon]

Old-Timer wrote:

This is going to sound incredibly silly to some people, but Pres. Packer has been a positive reformer in a number of ways – but you have to remove his talks about all things sexual to see it. The problem is that he spends so much time on all things sexual that it’s hard to set them aside and see where he actually has been quite progressive.

Yes, there is some truth to this. I’ve heard that BKP is the one pushing for a shorter Sunday schedule (do away with SS), and TSM is the one standing in the way (they are not going to end SS on my watch…)

I was in a Priesthood leadership meeting with BKP, and two things really touched my. The first was his comment about pipe organs in Stake Centers. He complemented the SP for not having one in the chapel. He recounted visiting a Stake that had a new building, and the SP was so proud of the new Pipe Organ that had been purchased with donations from the members. As they were leaving the building, in the back parking lot, he say a lady in a very humble home out back hanging clothes on a line. BKP inquired about her, and the SP said she was a widow in the stake, with several kids. BKP turned to the SP and asked if it would not have been better to give the organ money to this sister.

The other story he told was about going to Mexico to establish a Stake from what had been a District. They arrived with boxes of manuals, forms, and instructions that they left with an overwhelmed newly called SP. BKP recalled that while sitting on the plane flying home, he started to cry and wondered what they had done to these poor members in Mexico, throwing all these new “programs” on them, when they had been just fine before.

If BKP could give up his preoccupation with sex and decorum, I think he might be an alright guy. But his negative persona has overshadowed his good qualities than many members never get to see. I feel lucky to have seen that side of him.

[Sheldon]

Getting back to the wording. How come the church never uses that kind of wording with other things in church history? For example.

1. BY looking like JS as he asserted his prophetic mantel : Documents suggest that Brigham Young’s face apparently looked like Joseph Smith. One journal reportedly showed this change, but there are few sources that back this up.

2. Documents suggest that William Marsh left the church because of a disagreement over milk. One journal reportedly said that he was upset over how his wife was treated, but a survey of other sources show a much more complex reason for him leaving the church.

It appears that when the history puts church leaders in a bad light, then words like “suggest, apparently” and reportedly” are used. You never see these when the church writes about the first vision, the translation of the BofA, the restoration of the MP, etc. When they are faith promoting, they are presented as facts.

A first good step, but a long way to go.

[Sheldon]

Ok Ray, now you made me cry at work and everybody thinks I’m weird…….

Great story. Many times as a bishop, all I could do is cry with people, as I didn’t have any ansews for them. This is such a case.

[Sheldon]

Old-Timer wrote:

There is absolutely nothing in Mormonism that is harder to handle than what is in generic Christianity – and this is a great example of that.

Yes, I agree. But the fact is that Mormon’s hold themselves up to be the “one true church”, so we should have more than just “generic Christians”, but we don’t. Our prophets provide no better or worse than anybody else’s. Where does that leave us?

[Sheldon]

Old-Timer wrote:

Honestly, Sheldon, I love the profiles – more for what they tell the traditionalist members than for what they tell non-members. The existence of this sort of member is a message that needs to be told, and I’m glad it’s being told.

Ray,

When the “I’m a Mormon” campaign first started, they put up in the Mormon corridor these large billboards with photos of people, and a few catchy phrases. There was one with a women dressed in medical garb, with the words to some affect that she was a nurse, and a Mormon.

A stay at home mom that had given up her goal to be a nurse so that she could “follow the prophets” and stay home with her children, saw that billboard and broke down into tears. How do you comfort this sister if you are her bishop?

(BTW I agree with you 100%, the members need to see these and take them to heart)

[Sheldon]

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s not just a Mormon or modern belief. It is obvious in the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Book of Mormon and lots of non-Christian texts, as well. People all throughout history have thought their time was so wicked that the world would be destroyed. We (modern Christians, not just Mormons) have reinterpreted Biblical warnings about “the last days” to be about our time, but they weren’t seen that way when they were written and spoken back in the day. At that time, the warnings weren’t about a long-future time; they were about the immediate future.

Yes, the difference is that we Mormons have 15 Prophets, Seers and Revelators, and you would think that they could get it right about when the end of the world is. But they are just as clueless as the rest of the Christian world. So, if a prophet can’t tell us when the “last days” are, who can? (BTW, BKP said it’s not in our life time, so get an education…..)

[Sheldon]

MissEyre wrote:

Even with the correct sizing some garments leave a hearty helping of cleavage and there are many women that are perfectly comfortable showing.

And, there are many men that are perfectly comfortable looking at said cleavage !!

[Sheldon]

These “out there” I’m a Mormon profiles bother me. It is because we all know this is NOT the typical Mormon, and the “brethren” would not put up with a church full of people like these. What the church PR dept. is trying to show is that the church is full of women that have PHDs, and are MDs. Men that are dancers and surfers and artists and rock band singers. That is not what is in my ward. We have white, middle aged women with 5 kids. We have men with 8 to 5 jobs.

Would the church ever put a billboard up that had a somewhat harried looking woman with a kid in her arm, and one around her feet, and say “I married at 19, have 4 kids, and never see my husband because he is an Elders Quorum President. I’m a Mormon!”

[Sheldon]

I gave the baptism talk at my granddaughter’s baptism 2 months ago. Here is what I did. I concentrated on the symbolism of it, and gearing it towards 8 year olds, I explained what a symbol is. I held my finger to my lips and ask the kids what they thought that meant. They said “be quiet”. I wagged my finder at them, and they said “don’t do that”, etc. I then explained that those where symbols used to represent something else. I also talked about numbers, and how they are symbols that represent how many there are of something. And that is what baptism was, a symbol that represents to god that we will try to be like him.

I then explained that the “washing away of sins” was a symbol. There would be no dirty sins floating in the water after the baptisms. They would not all of a sudden feel any different after baptism. They would still make mistakes just like they did last week.

May not work with an older crowd, but the kids liked it.

[Sheldon]

While I was bishop, a woman bearing her testimony had her skirt fall down complete to the floor. It was an old building, and the seats on the stand were very close to the pulpit. My counselors face was just a few feet from the now panty covered bottom of this lady. The best part was she didn’t miss a beat. She saw what had happened, reached down and pulled up her skirt, and continued her testimony.

To this day people in the ward still come up to me and remind me of the incident. Thankfully the sister has moved.

[Sheldon]

If you write a letter to the FP (or any GA) asking what the church’s position is on evolution, your SP will get a letter from the office of the FP that says

Quote:

The position of the Church on the origin of man was published by the First Presidency in 1909 and stated again by a different First Presidency in 1925:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient and modern, declares man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. . . . Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes

The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how, though the Lord has promised that he will tell that when he comes again (D&C 101:32-33). In 1931, when there was intense discussion on the issue of organic evolution, the First Presidency of the Church, then consisting of Presidents Heber J. Grant, Anthony W. Ivins, and Charles W. Nibley, addressed all of the General Authorities of the Church on the matter, and concluded,

Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church. . .

Your SP will be instructed to share the contents of the letter with you, but not give you the letter. This was the protocol during GBH’s tenure. I do not know how TSM does it. I have a transcription of the letter, made with a help of a SP that did not follow the instructions!

Also, the above quote appears in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

[Sheldon]

My quotes

Quote:

From the “Priesthood Quorums’ Table”, Improvement Era, 13, p. 570 (April, 1910)

“Whether the mortal bodies of man evolved in natural processes to present perfection, through the direction and power of God; whether the first parents of our generations, Adam and Eve, were transplanted from another sphere, with immortal tabernacles, which became corrupted through sin and the partaking of natural foods, in the process of time; whether they were born here in mortality, as other mortals have been, are questions not fully answered in the revealed word of God.”

First Presidency, 1910 (Joseph F. Smith, President)

“The Church itself has no philosophy about the modus operandi employed by the Lord in His creation of the world, and much talk therefore about the philosophy of Mormonism is altogether misleading.”

Joseph F. Smith, “Editorial Thoughts”, Juvenile Instructor 46(4), pp. 208-9 (April, 1911).

“The Church has issued no official statement on the subject of the theory of evolution.

Neither ‘Man, His Origin and Destiny’ by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, nor ‘Mormon Doctrine’ by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, is an official publication of the Church.”

David O. McKay, President

(letter to Dr. A. Kent Christensen, Cornell

University Medical College, 3 Feb 1959)

“I have also been directed to say that the book to which you refer in your letter (Man, His Origin and Destiny by Joseph F. Smith) expresses the views of the author, for which he assumes full responsibility. The book was not published, approved, or authorized by the Church, nor did the author intend that it be.”

A. Hamer Reiser, Asst. Secretary to

The First Presidency (letter from the Office

of the First Presidency to Robert C. Stones,

21 Apr 1960–David O. McKay being the then

current President)

“Man became a living soul–mankind, male and female. The Creators breathed into their nostrils the breath of life and man and woman became living souls. We don’t know exactly how their coming into this world happened, and when we’re able to understand it the Lord will tell us.”

President Spencer W. Kimball, “Speaking

Today . . .”, Ensign, March, 1976, pp. 70-72.

[Sheldon]

SilentDawning wrote:

I wish the Church wasn’t true .

What does one mean when they say the church is true? A church, or in this case the Corporation of the First Presidency, is the bylaws of incorporation, with all the bureaucracy that goes along with it. Is that true? Or is it a church that teaches something that is true, so becomes true also by way of its teachings? If so the Catholic church is true, because it teaches about the life of Christ.

Or does one mean the LDS church is true because it is the only church that teaches the truths needed to get back to God, and all other churches fall short? And where do the falsehoods fit in a true church, like the BofA translation, Blacks and the Priesthood, etc , etc.

Can one say the church is Good, and that is good enough to stay in the church? Can I testify of the good church?

[Author]

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