[Shell]

nibbler wrote:

Is it the church in particular that couldn’t change to meet your/our needs or is it more of that organized/formalized religion in general fails to meet your/our needs?

For me, I think that it’s far more in the camp of all organized religion. I agree with Heber when he said that most religious institutions operate to keep people from getting to stage 4/5. I grew up in many other Christian churches and with that, I can see why someone would say it is this church in particular. Granted, I was a kid but from what I remember the other churches I attended had far less rules. Sure, there was still fire and brimstone at times, but far less often as I recall. The authoritativeness of our church, in particular, chaps me a bit. But I can see it in all organized religions. They all have to claim some level of authority to keep people in the pews. I’ve only ever been to 1 church that didn’t do that. It’s the church my sister and her family attend. It’s, purely, about Christ and learning to love one another. The lady preacher is just wonderful.

With all that said, I still think that organized religion plays a very pivotal role in the lives of many. I see the insta-community that is immediately found and the friendships that are made. I told my wife the other day, “if it were me, I could do without going to church.” And I meant any church. I feel closest to God when I am fly fishing or duck hunting. The Sundays I will cherish most will definitely be the ones where I opt to take my family to do one of those. It’s how I was raised. It’s what my pop and I did. and it’s something that marked my soul from day one.

Heber13 wrote:

Organized religion is important for groups of people to accomplish things and to learn and support.

This is spot on. Open invitation, I invite you to read “Sapiens” if you have not already. It talks a lot about how man has evolved over time, or at least what the leading theories are as to how man became what he is today. In it he talks about why Homo Sapiens became so dominant. In reality, we are middle-of-the-pack on the food chain. What made us dominant is that we can form massive communities, which is something no other species has accomplished. We did that through our ability to imagine things. One of the greatest “imaginings” he talks about it religion. It’s a fascinating read, but definitely not for everyone.

dande48 wrote:

What I am looking for, is a place where everyone is working to become better people.

Couldn’t agree more about this. And your comment in general. I’m sure there are those that become better people because of what they learn at church. I tend to believe, for the most part, that I cannot say that about myself. Sure, I hear some sprinklings at times, but I hear way too much fire and brimstone to make me see the better aspects of the day spent there. I have times where I will sit through all 3 hours and not hear “Christ” uttered once outside of prayers. Its far more about how great so-and-so was, how much persecution we get, and how others need to see everything the church says literally or they are damned. Again, It chaps me.

[Shell]

Sorry, it’s been a while. I ended up getting contacted by a recruiter for another company. End of that story is my family and I are moving to Oregon in a few weeks. I think the move out of Utah may help me out a bit. Wife and I have been taking a break from church in the mean time. We struggle in our ward, so are waiting til after to move to go. It’s been a bit of a relief.

Roy, I really like that talk. I have read it more times than I can count since I was last on here. I think that I am pretty firmly a Liahona. I am trying to see the dynamic between the two types and it’s helped me.

DJ, I really like that talk as well. I remember watching Uchtdorf give it. Yes, it was the gospel topics essay on the first vision accounts that I stumbled upon back at the start of this all.

A little update with where I am at. I have been talking with a few trusted members of my wife’s family about all this. One of them knows the issues and has left the church. The other knows the issues and is a member of his bishopric. It’s been a good balance for me, but ultimately I am pretty comfortably leaning one way. My wife and I have talked a lot as well. She, unbeknownst to me, has been struggling quite a bit as well. Her issues stem more from the way her TBM family has been treating the one daughter and her family who has chosen to leave. Let’s just say that the treatment has been less that Christlike. From there she has realized how manipulated she has been by her family. Like I said earlier, we are currently on a little hiatus. We plan to watch conference (or at least a bit of it) this weekend and then try again in our new ward in Oregon. Ultimately, I don’t know what all this means for us, but I believe we will be fine however the chips fall. I am happy about that. We talk a lot about how we will be alright as long as we do things together. We recognize that “doing things together” may become a mixed faith family and we are both very comfortable with that. She asked me the other night “If you choose to be done, will you have your records removed?” I gave her a big non-answer of “that depends on where you land.” I explained that if she were to stay and I was to go, I would not remove my name because that would void a few things that she cared about, and I would not do that to her. If she decided to go as well, I likely would as neither of us would believe it was a necessary part of being together forever.

It’s strange, I’m in a good place right now. Happy that my wife and I are working through it together. I’m still trying to find a way to make it work for me, it’s a lot easier knowing that I am free to make whatever decision is ultimately made.

[Shell]

Curt, Thank you for your insights. I too can respect the churches stance on a variety of things much more now that I am working individual spirituality into my beliefs. I see what you are saying about it, ultimately, being an authority issue. Thank you.

Dande, I agree whole heartedly, or at least I think I do ha. Don’t know what else to say other than thank you.

Amy, perception does seem to be crucial. I just really struggle to perceive that talk in what I am sure is the spirit of what Elder Oaks is saying. It’s just so foreign to me as a father.

Again, thank you everyone.

[Shell]

Roy wrote:

You mentioned that “reading that talk … was probably one of my greatest blessings.” I assume that you mean the Elder Oaks talk on two lines of communication. Can you elaborate on how that was a blessing for you? I remember the talk well and it was difficult for many of us here

I too have read most the introductions in my time spent as a lurker. On to your question quoted above.

I certainly do not mean to say that the things said in Elder Oaks talk were what was a blessing, I hold on to the belief that they are (and were for me) extremely damaging. I was angry prior to reading it, even with finding this forum there was still a lot of anger. The things in the talk literally broke me. But when my testimony was gone and with having a wife that could see that and the sadness it caused, I was able to start fresh. I lost my testimony but was able to also let go of a lot of the anger that I was holding on to along with it. I am now in a place where I am not angry, which is a huge blessing. I am sad, but I think that makes it a lot more likely for me to continue in the church as opposed to the alternative.

I hope that makes sense. I tend to ramble a bit, it’s just me trying to figure things out.

[Shell]

I liked that talk, thank you for sharing. I guess Elder Oaks is entitled to his opinion as well. Maybe it’s just that, his spirituality, How he sees things.

As for the family thing, I don’t know that kind of issue. From the day we got married, my wife and I decided things together. Some of the best decisions we have made have been contrary to what I initially thought was the right course.

[Author]

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