[SilentDawning]

Sounds like priestcraft to me. Making money off your holding the priesthood or your membership in the church. I think it’s shady…

[SilentDawning]

I never thought of there being multiple Heavenly Mothers, but it makes sense if we believe a man can be sealed to multiple women. Interesting how I never thought of that — probably because everyone talks about our Heavenly Mother (singular) rather than our Heavenly Mothers (plural).

DarkJedi wrote:

I do believe religion in general and the LDS church* specifically complicate things. If you read the Bible (or the Book of Mormon for that matter) there isn’t anything akin to the “covenant path.” Faith (belief in God/Jesus) and repentance (change) are recurrent themes, baptism is mentioned**, and something like the gift of the Holy Ghost is mentioned even less. I’m not totally convinced of Jesus’s role at Savior/Redeemer or that Jesus is a God or any more of a son of God than the rest of us. Jesus/Messiah/Savior/Redeemer is a great idea, but is open to a great deal of interpretation and is understood very differently among different religions and different churches.

I tend to agree with the quote above DJ. But what continues to nag me is the powerful spiritual experiences I had teaching the gospel when I was a missionary. It continues to nag me when I get comfortable in my less-activity. I sure am happier than I was as fully active Mormon though, if that is any indication. I spent a lot of time frustrated at the lack of commitment of people, and feeling pressure at the imperatives the bishop and stake put on us to clean up the records, activate everybody, get everyone going to the temple, etcetera. And the sacrifices of time and money aren’t something I miss either. A lot of time was expended pursuing goals that were unachievable, particularly those that involve influencing the agency of others. Something I never really enjoyed.

That’s for another thread, and I think I mentioned it before about the difficulty I have reconciling what my heart is telling me (that’ it’s not as true as everyone says Mormonism is), and the spiritual experiences I had, particularly as a missionary.

[SilentDawning]

I think the questions sound a bit liberal (the diversity question), and the financial transparency criterion sounds like a reaction to a church like the COJCOLDS that is not transparent about its finances at all.

As a seasoned man now, if I was shopping for a religion I would probably ask:

1. What do they expect of me, and can I meet those expectations without feeling burdened or experiencing negative impact on my mental health?

2. How well do I bond with the kind of people who attend such a church?

3. Are they respectful of my time? [A big one, as someone who has invested a lot of time in activities that have no spiritual or factual return on investment].

4. Are they financially transparent?

5. Will committing myself to this church make me happy?

Since I reduced my involvement in the LDS church, my mental health and overall happiness is much higher than it was when I was a committed member. In that respect, the LDS Church fails in meeting #1 and #5. It doesn’t pass #4, and does not pass #3 either. #2 is so-so — I have had some wards where sitting down at a ward social and trying to get a conversation out of most people is like pulling teeth. I’ve had others where I admire the people, but there was no friendship there. And there was one Ward where I got along well with everyone, and even made a friend who is still a friend 35 years later.

But I still identify as Mormon. Still live the lifestyle principles, in spite of temptation to do otherwise. And always leave myself open to return to it some day. With definite boundaries, that’s for sure.

[SilentDawning]

I would be unable to talk on this topic. If not on the covenant path, and having some misgivings about it, I don’t think I could speak with integrity. I would ask for something like “Love at Home” or something generic like “Faithful Thinking”…and even with the latter, I would focus more on positive thinking, holding a positive outlook on the future, and faith as a motivator to action, rather than speaking on religious faith.

Sudden thought — I could possibly speak on this topic by reframing the word “Covenant Path” to mean the keeping of promises. This could branch into the role of integrity, or of keeping one’s word. Faithful Temple Covenant keepers could read the temple into the comments, with me having to necessarily go there.

[SilentDawning]

I would like to offer my perspective on this.

I too have been blindsided and deeply hurt by the behavior of church members. There was a traditional believer’s discussion forum I started participating in about 10 years ago, and when I offered some of my problems with church members and areas of doubt in the church, there was a group of old timers who wrote a lot of nasty things to me — without receiving any moderation. I was appalled that people who had made such a commitment to be kind to others would behave that way. I eventually deregistered my account and came here – where people are more accepting of alternate points of view.

In my home ward, there was a YW presidency who were really mean to me — going so far as to circulate a nasty note to the entire Ward leadership about me and my weaknesses as a leader. This hurt me deeply and it bothered me for over 10 years. I finally dealt with it with EMDR therapy. I now now feel no need to reiterate what they did and its impact and have moved past this.

Also bothersome to me was how much time it took to be an LDS leader, and how I started a lot of projects that the members never finished. I was frustrated with the lack of commitment and reliability from people who accepted callings.

So, then I turned my service hours to the community for about 5 years. Guess what? I experienced many of the same problems I saw in the church. Not the nasty notes, but lack of commitment and interpersonal conflicts with individual people over the best way to do things. So, the weaknesses you see in church members also exist in other volunteer contexts, particularly related to interpersonal conflicts and lack of commitment.

I wish I hadn’t let the behavior of others affect me so. But it did. So realize you will run into disappointing people in just about any non-profit context.

Church members are also very prone to judgmentalism since we all share a common code of conduct. That comes with the territory of belonging to a church with a lot of prescribed behavior like the LDS Church. And its one reason I think Christ said “Be a light not a judge”.

So, try to overlook their behavior, try to forgive people for their shortcomings, and try to be a light to others amidst their weaknesses.

I hope this helps,

SD

[SilentDawning]

I am interested in watching this movie. I have watched the trailer, and it’s pretty clear the two sisters are Mormon missionaries. Even when they say that can’t come into the house unless there is a female present. Not sure if this is the case for sisters, but for elders we couldn’t teach a woman alone on my mission.

Looking forward to watching it. Good to know it’s not perpetually gory and I appreciate the reviews on this movie!

SD

[SilentDawning]

Roy wrote:

I just wish that church membership wasn’t so much of a chore (literal chores in this case).

Me too. I have often thought that the LDS church is for plodders. You end up doing the same thing over and over again, and a lot of it doesn’t lead to any results. You hear the same messages all the time, sacrament meeting is the same boring meeting, and although there have been improvements in the former home teaching program (now ministering) that too is somewhat monotonous.

One thing I wish Hustle M. Nelson would do is go back to a paid janitorial service. I have to admit, some of the janitorial staff I experienced at home and on my mission got this kind of crankiness about them that made it tough sometimes, but I would rather put up with that than be on the list for chapel cleaning.

To spice up the church experience, there are a few things the church can do:

a) Make ministering something you do when there is a legitimate need in the family and you are invited — like when they invite you because they are sick and need a blessing, need counseling due to unemployment problems, etcetera. It’s a structure that is in place to make sure all of these anomalous service requirements aren’t placed on the backs of the leadership. Regular interaction is encouraged to create a relationship of trust so the ministeree feels comfortable calling their minister when there is a need, but it’s not mandated. Keep up with PPI’s to feed the structure and keep it going.

b) Call itinerant speakers from the stake as whole –– some of your best speakers, and have them travel around the stake for every sacrament meeting as the keynote speaker. Maybe you get the same speaker once every two months or so. You can keep the other two speakers so people get the opportunity to grow, but make sure your best speakers are in each ward each week. This will make sacrament meeting more informative and enjoyable. If this isn’t possible due to the number of speakers needed — cut it back to a regular guest speaker at a frequency the Stake can handle.

c) increase the budgets to the wards for ward socials, and programs.

d) Start introducing modern songs into the hymn book like songs from Janice Kapp Perry, Bryce Neubert and other contemporary LDS artists. For example, although an older song (I am still stuck in my early twenties when I was a missionary), Have You Received His Image in Your Countenance was a hit song for Janice Kapp Perry, and as a ballad, I think it could fit into an LDS sacrament meeting just fine. Jesus Was No Ordinary Man was also a good song by Janice that could work in a sacrament meeting. We Are As the Armies of Helaman was also good. There are probably contemporary LDS artists that I’m not aware of that have pioneered some good songs for sacrament meeting.

e) Consider some duo or trio musical performances as a regular occurrence. Not a gospel rock band like you see in a lot of mainstream churches, but a piano-violin, piano-guitar, piano-flute, or a small string ensemble, and of course, the old standard — piano and vocals — depending on availability in the ward or stake. I see no problem with drawing on the stake for roles that require talent or specialization so there is a wider pool of talent from which to draw. With consideration for the needs at the ward level though. More than once I have seen the Stake call talented people to Stake positions when the Ward in which the member resides is hurting for good people. None of that!!!

f) Favor big wards where the full program of the church can be implemented rather than small wards, even if this means investing in more buildings. I have been in too many Wards where ward-splitting just placed a huge burden on the backs of the committed leaders. For example, I have had callings where I had a full presidency, but I was the only one that was really committed. All the other people were only half or a quarter there, or not there at all. When I had a full, committed presidency, church service was so much more of a joy than when I was the only committed member of the presidency.

I think have a YM-YW organization with one set of people for the Sunday lessons and one person for the Weekly Activity would be a good idea. They had that in California when I lived there, and the youth programs thrived.

g) Put the Seminary Program fully online to relieve parents and youth the burden of attending early morning seminary.

Just a few ideas spawned by your comment above Roy.

[SilentDawning]

The way I interact with other people is to follow an admonition from Max Dupree, the author of The Art of Leadership and Leadership Jazz. He makes a comment in one of these books “It’s generally best to treat employees as volunteers”. He was speaking about paid employees in this context. So, if it’s best to treat even employees as volunteers, how much more applicable is his statement to actual volunteers?

I think a better approach is to email the ward to ask who is willing to clean the chapel on a certain frequency. Then create a schedule of the willing members and confirm the times work for the willing volunteers.

If there aren’t enough volunteers to cover the Ward’s needs, there could be a second appeal indicating the short fall, and asking for more help.

If in the end there just aren’t enough people to do it, then I suggest paying someone out of the Ward budget.

I think one of the worst examples of Christlike leadership is the statement that “we are not a church of volunteers, we are a church of assignments”. That is the way of totalitarianism in my view, manifested in a small way in the email Roy received.

I have to confess, one observation I’ve made from the inside of leadership at the ward and stake level is that the church is rather tight-fisted with funds given to the wards. I had a situation where there weren’t enough HP members to home teach all of the people assigned to us. So I sent out letters at $50 a month in stamps plus the cost of toner. The Bishop acknowledged these letters made a difference when he met with the less active. The letters I sent were the only bit of gospel information they received in their inactivity. But as I was paying tithing and a bit of a fast offering, I got tired of the $600 per year I was spending on postage back in 2010’s. I asked the Bishop for a budget for this an he refused.

Then I heard he SENT MONEY BACK TO THE STAKE at the end of the year, unspent. I sense this is a bit of a feather in the cap of the local Ward leader who is allotted funds but doesn’t use them all. It made me feel very despondent about our priorities as a ward. It was clear that outreach to less actives was only important if it was free to the church. Needless to say, I stopped sending the letters.

[SilentDawning]

If the same principles of wealth accumulation apply in one of our next lives, then I’m all for it. I have learned a lot about how to build wealth, and I made a lot of mistakes getting here. To be able to start over again with the same set of rules is like being given a new life.

One thing we know is that temple work will advance substantially in the millennium. So, names and proxy ordinances don’t just run by themselalso still have to work for temporal comforts during that period. I think it’s probably so — otherwise, what do you do all day?

And do resurrected beings need to be fed, clothed, and sheltered — probably so. We wouldn’t walk around nude in our perfect bodies. We will still need private settings for using our bodies in sex probably, and maybe even going to the bathroom. We know that Christ ate a fish after being resurrected, so eating is probably part of our millennial existence. And with that comes the need for substance and transactions.

Hate to say it Old_Timer, but I think you’ll still have to eke out an existence somehow. Although I expect there will be greater deference to the poor given the advanced kind of people who are resurrected at the beginning of the millenium.

[SilentDawning]

I don’t think the commentary says much, other than to justify the representation of the church’s use of funds for the City Creek Project.

They also released commentary (or whatever you call it) when they were fined for hiding funds on the strength of recommendations from their financial advisers. I do find it a bit of a double standard that the church describes itself as led by revelation, but in the case of the fine for hiding funds, they simply said they were relying on advice from their financial advisers — not revelation. So, it appears that revelation only guides the church when the decision works out. Not when decisions result in a fine.

I agree with Roy that the blessings of paying tithing are most often described as blessings to the giver — not the receiver, which in this case, the church. I do see how it’s a blessing to be instrumental in blessing the lives of others, THROUGH THE CHURCH, but given the size of required tithing dollars, particularly as you advance in your career, I think there needs to be some blessing that comes back to the giver, beyond feeling good that they gave to a charitable cause.

[SilentDawning]

@nibbler — I’m glad that at least there is some vagueness on this point. The thing is, one of the scriptures say that you get the degree of glory that you can “stand”. I have been a full-on, believing, overcommitted Mormon, so I know I can stand that level of existence. It might not be fun all the time, and wearying too, but I know I can do it. I just don’t want to right now.

[SilentDawning]

nibbler wrote:

Doctrine and Covenants section 19 might be worth a revisit. It introduces the concept of the world “eternal” as being more of an adjective meaning “from god” than something that has endless duration and how god uses the word “eternal” to influence our decisions.

Here is the meat of the quote:

Quote:

6: Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7: Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

This implies that a lot of the hyperbole we read about the importance of this life as the driver of our eternal salvation is there to motivate us, even though it may not be completely true.

However, I asked this question of an EQ a while back — that the punishment seems temporary. The Stake President happened to be in the class that day, and he piped up. He said the way this was explained to him — the part about punishment not being endless — that we will not like it at first but we’ll “get used to it” and it won’t seem as much like punishment anymore, but it will still be punishment, and there will not be eternal increase and the other blessings of the celestial kingdom.

Traditional members have an answer for everything it seems, all to point you in the textbook Mormon path. There is so much I wish I knew firsthand.

[SilentDawning]

When I read your talk I feel saddened that I have less faith in Christ as a Savior than I did when I was active.

When I was in my early twenties I suffered with guilt over things I did. I read about ENOS in the Book of Mormon and how he felt the burden of guilt LIFTED when he prayed. An experience like that I felt would help me believe in Christ fully. I even went into the woods for an afternoon and prayed my heart out like ENOS and the feeling of forgiveness never came. So I accepted Christ on faith, and taught about Him for 2 years on my mission. But as I got toward the end of my mission I shared with my Mission President about how my faith in Christ was weaker than my faith in God. He replied “But that’s the core of our message!!!!”. I don’t think he wanted to deal with my lack of Christ testimony. It also makes me realize why perhaps I went into the Zone Leader position at about 13 months and stayed a ZL for the rest of my mission. Confessions like mine don’t exactly engender a call as Assistant to the President (AP).

At least the BoM was instrumental in helping me understand the WHY behind Jesus Christ. The law of justice and mercy is clearly explained in the BoM and not in the Bible. That helped me develop SOME faith in Christ.

This is opening a can of worms for me so I plan to stop.

Back to your Home Free song — I realize now how much we yearn for the ability to go back to a place where we are accepted for who we are. After alienating my biological family for years as a Mormon, I now look forward to seeing my brother and sister and spending time with them. They are kind to me and are supportive of me in my estrangement from my daughter. The passing of my mother also helped as she was not accepting of me for who I am. Going home now is a place of healing and acceptance, which is something that I think your talk alludes to.

Some people with out of body experiences at near-death report a feeling of acceptance in the next world. I hope the acceptance and healing for who we are is there, even for disaffected Mormons like me. I heard there was a talk where a GA said God loves us, but his love is not unconditional. I don’t know who said it, but that’s a depressing thought.

[SilentDawning]

Roy wrote:

I try to apply the concept of co-missioning and get multiple benefits from the service I give. For example, I might volunteer with my kids and build experience and marketable skills for them while also receiving validation and recognition that I crave for self-actualization.

I too am in the co-missioning camp. After I decided the church was not a fulfilling place to serve, I went into the community and got immediate kudos from my academic managers for a whole host of experiences:

a) Setting up a Buy Local program.

b) Providing meaningful, real world projects for our university’s students.

c) setting up the 501 (c ) 3 and staffing it with high performing students who worked with real issues and real money.

d) Volunteer of the Year award from the Mayor of the city I was in at the time.

At one point, I was told I got noticed by senior leaders who said I must have leadership skills when the 501 (c ) 3 I started was named Up and Coming Community Organization. This led to a promotion and some other adventures I won’t go into.

Whenever I tried to use my church service in job interviews or even in applications to leadership positions within my company, the reception was cold to lukewarm and didn’t matter.

Yes, we do eternal good in certain callings, but I will take the co-missioned kind of service over church service any day.

[SilentDawning]

I read an article somewhere that said that masturbation is responsible for holding certain marriages together. There are some partners who refuse to meet the reasonable sexual needs of their spouse. So that unfulfilled spouse, particularly men, get rid of that painful and distracting erection through masturbation. This fulfils their emotional needs enough that they are able to stay in the marriage happy enough.

So, it’s not all bad. You might also argue that single people use masturbation to keep them from committing premarital sex with others.

I am not in the camp that it’s a sin.

On the other hand, I wish with all the might I can muster that God didn’t create us with these desires. They drove me nuts when I was young. Totally nuts and full of guilt for even having sexual thoughts.

There was a line in a movie I’ll never forget:

“The loss of my libido was like being unchained from a lunatic.”

[Author]

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